Hello people,

This is the first time I'm opening a thread in Hilbert's Hotel and I rarely post in here either mainly because I don't see a point in it. People come here with a set opinion in their mind and will defend it against people with a different one and that's that. I've yet to see anyone change their mind on something due to a Hilbert's Hotel argument, or even show the slightest effort of trying to.

Nevertheless, the thread about Dan changing views about Christianity gave me the urge to talk about something here.. Half the people in that thread are growing desperate about how gullible people can be, even in the 21st century, by buying all those dated stories that are written in the bible. I feel like they are sincerely trying to shake the other half to finally see beyond the lies and in turn live a better lies free life. On the other side, people like ChrisTodd took it upon themselves to honestly try to help a person like Dan who is appearing to be losing his faith and help him turn back before it is too late for him. Whichever side you are it can get a bit annoying of course and sometime this genuine help can be mutated into frustration and maybe even hatred. A Christian for example will follow Jesus example and try to put sense in the non-believer by saying "God loves you but if you turn your back on Him you will spend eternity in Hell and there's nothing to laugh about it because Hell is real!". Someone who doesn't believe in God and Hell however will simply find this sentence annoying, especially after hearing it for the 1000th time and it can be even more annoying that whatever arguments he uses Christians will always put God before reason and will stubbornly refuse to look any logic points that the non-believer will present them with.

IF YOU'RE IN A HURRY, IGNORE ALL THE ABOVE AND READ HERE FOR THE ACTUAL TOPIC RELATED THREAD. So, here's just a theory I have which may bring comfort to everyone, every time he or she will fail to make a friend or a stranger to see through his/her eyes. I have to say though that my theory may not work for the Christians since they believe that every other person will go to Hell if he doesn't believe in the Christian God, so it may be hard for them to see past that.. But I digress (i know, 'digress' is SO overused but I always wanted to say it once ).

So... By perfect world I mean that every person and all the different beliefs or political parties or the different cultures around the world, they're all useful. When it comes to nature, we don't find it hard to believe that every different organism is useful to something, even annoying pests and bacteria or viruses. Somehow we do trust nature, but when it comes to human societies we become the world's greatest cynic creature. We see the corruption in politics, the violence in the streets, all the unnecessary wars, drug trafficking, child pornography and we always come up with a phrase like: "This world has gone downhill.." or "Humans have definitely f*cked it up.." or the all famous: "I don't want to bring a child to this world". However, what we seem to forget sometimes is that we, humans, are also a creation of Nature.. And yes, our brain which gives us the power to form our own decisions unlike most animals is the creation of Nature as well. So, when you think that a common trait for rats, grey squirrels, african dogs, lions, butterflies, baboons and Langurs is to eat their own young alive, it certainly puts child pornography into some perspective, doesn't it?

So now that I got you into my frame of mind I just wanted to make the point that if nature has 'evolved' (I'm sure I lost a lot of people by using this word but there's no other way to say it...) a society with both Christians and non-Christians, this means that both have a use in our society. Off the top of my head I could say that Christians may use the positive effects of their strong faith in their God to live a steady life and thus be more reliable than others. Also those rules that they force onto themselves may actually protect them sometimes. On the other hand, someone who doesn't have to live a certain way of life full of restrictions due to its beliefs will generally be more open-minded, and our society needs open-minded people to try new things and advance humanity further into the future.

So, all I want to say is, don't be so pissed off if someone cannot/doesn't want to share your point of view and also that at the end of the day it's not such a bad thing that he/she does not. In the case of Christians and non-Christians it doesn't even matter if the Christian God and Jesus are actually real or not; it just doesn't. Joozey said it best in Dan's thread that everyone should be an agnostic since no-one can actually prove or disprove the existence of a Creator but in our own little Perfect world, I'm glad everyone is not.

Cheers,
Aris

You are right, nobody change his mind here, but there is a reason

The topics are : theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Do you seriously think that somebody can really bring a personal contribution
into the discussion ?

I have already discussed this issue

In my opinion people should only inform the other members by quoting referenced sources rather than expressing their own opinion
I am of course mainly talking about scientific topics

If so , I see a point in this thread otherwise you turn it into an arena of super egocentric personalities

You might be expecting a little bit too much there. I do agree with you, as I think some arguments that were brought up here should have been enough to convince people as far as that they are believing 'wrong' things, however I've come to learn here that it's not (always) the facts that really matter.

Also, the main problem of course is 'science & evidence' vs. 'religion & faith', so to speak. This is a simplified representation of what's going on of course.

However, as a result.. people's minds won't change in here,

Cheers

expecting what? "I've yet to see..." means "i haven't seen it yet". it doesn't mean or even imply the expectation that someone might change their mind. in fact Aris hasn't posted here before because no one ever changes their minds.
"full of restrictions" is a bit too strong, and generalises Christians too much (when discussing a religion there's always room for generalisation, but in this case i'd say that's still too much). ignoring "Christians" who call themselves Christians but really aren't by any stretch of Biblical standards, Christianity covers a broad range from the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and a few Protestant denominations with strict hierarchies and conditions for salvation, to those who take the Bible literally when it says "...whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16, among many other similar verses).

what makes me a Christian? i believe Jesus died and rose again for my salvation. that's it. i don't have strict restrictions on my life. i'm free to live it exactly how i want. but my desire to have the best life possible leads me to study the Bible's wisdom. this means (among other things) be uplifting to others, treat them as you would have them treat you, be an example to others, respect the laws of those over you even though, abstain from sex before you're married, have lots of sex with your spouse when you are married (that's in there too), be forgiving because you expect God to forgive you... these are all good morals, not restrictions that inhibit our advancement.

julz

Pretty sensible post I think Larry Laffer! It makes sense to me...I am with Julz though, I dont see where the restrictions are. I guess the 'restrictions' that others see are just things I wouldnt want to do anyway.

But we all make mistakes, like maybe teasing Larry in his INTENSE X thread was a mistake of mine. I dont know.

Peace

Apart from not being limited by other people's exact words as far as expressing my own opinion goes. I think 'I've yet to see' can most certainly express some kind of expectation, mostly in certain disbelieving way.

But sure, he could have meant differently.



I totally agree.



All these moral or social values are not exclusive to Christianity or any religion for that matter. Basically you're saying you believe you are living your life better than non-Christians, where in reality non-religious people more often than not share the exact same values. The restrictions aren't moral ones, but rather psychological ones.

Cheers

i didn't say (or even imply) that those values are exclusive to Christianity. nor did i say that the Bible is the only place to find these morals. all i said was that the Bible places NO restrictions on my life, and cited some examples of moral teachings in the Bible that could (perhaps) be misconstrued as restrictions, when they are actually good examples of living that are inconsequential to our salvation.

julz

I think they are not all useful, but I agree to what you say subsequently that they are all natural.

From a perspective of a perfect society, Muslim extremists or child molesters are not useful. But they exist because their mindset also belongs to the pool of possible human mind sets and thus is a product of nature or evolution or whatever you call it.

However, we normally don't accept this but attempt to make our society better, by rules and laws, which also includes religious laws like the 10 commandments, and thus try to filter our mindsets we consider 'not useful'. This way, we try to correct nature.

Okey, well then please accept my apologies as I did had the feeling that you implied just that. I have to say though that usually, and yes I'm generalizing here, Christians tend to act at least "as if" they have a certain kind of exclusivity on morals.

I have heard far too many times that the Bible is the right or even only place to find morals and that without it, people would not be able to find morals. Apparently you disagree with that, just like me.



Right, but I do not have restrictions either, so I guess we can leave it at this then as far as restrictions. You have to admit though, they often talk about 'being released' or 'freedom' both when people convert to a certain belief and when people break from their religion again. Kind of contradictory if you ask me when it comes to restrictions, but I guess it's just a certain feeling...

Cheers

yeah, i've heard that as well from some.
i agree there as well. maybe it's freedom from the same thing -- the question. before becoming religious (i assume) one questions the truthfulness of that religion. before leaving a religion, i guess the same question would be there: "is this for real?". in both cases, the question is a big deal because it has a large impact on your life and your eternal life (whether you're accepting eternal life or deciding there is none), and that places a large burden on the person. so what i'm hypothesising is, perhaps this 'freedom' is just a freedom from that question, and not the religion itself?

at the same time, some religions do have a lot of restrictions and it could be considered 'freedom' to be released from those. or, i guess, becoming part of a religion with lots of rules and restrictions 'frees' you from having to make some decisions for yourself.

maybe it's a mix of both.

julz