i read it and didn't see any denial.

this is my interpretation of the passage, with a little bit of context on either end; show me where your interpretation differs so we can compare:

having been asked if He's the Christ, Jesus tells the Jews that He has already told them, and that He is the giver of eternal life, followed by "I and the Father are one" -- effectively [Jesus = God].

appalled by this claim to divinity, the Jews prepare to stone Him, so Jesus responds by asking which good deed He did (apparently the original Greek words refer more to the quality of the deeds than their miraculous nature) that warrants His stoning. they respond that His claim to be God is blasphemy, and so He must be stoned.

Jesus responds by pointing out that the Scripture refers to worldly rulers as 'gods', and if they can have that claim, how much more can the one the Father set apart (presumably as more than merely a worldly ruler)! He asks if He's being blasphemous by claiming to be God's Son and really has the works to support it, or perhaps more-so that He is not un-Godly in anything He does. "...the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (i would've thought a clear reference to His divinity).

having heard this, the Jews tried to punish Him anyway (presumably still believing He was claiming to be God), but Jesus escaped.

julz

for broozar:

My position is that I believe Jesus was a prophet, but that he never claimed to be God. I believe this is evident when one reads the Bible in a non-biased way.

If someone comes to the Bible with an existing conclusion, it's easy to read that conclusion into the text. This could be pretty much anything, from the trinity, to aliens, to lesbianism. However, these conclusions would never come from an honest reading of the text.

For me, you have to interprete scripture as a whole. The Old Testament makes it clear that God is immaterial, eternal, anyone who even sees Him will die, and He has a specific name -Yahwah.

Therefore, for Jesus to claim he was God, as the Jews presumed, would be foolishness and blasphemy.

Therefore, with this context, I think Jesus' explanation can only be interpreted as: If God has already called those who recieved the scripture 'gods', and has named them 'children of the Most High', then my claim to be one with God, or the Son of God should be interpreted the same way, i.e. not a claim to divinity at all.

This is further compounded by many other statements of Jesus.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17)

Here Jesus is questioning why the man called him good, when the only one worthy of this title is God. If he was claiming to be God, he would have accepted this attribution without question.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)

Here Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and God. If God is the only one who knows the hour of judgement, and Jesus is claiming to be God, then he should not have made this distinction.

Before you respond to these explanations, because I've probably heard them before, try to look at the whole picture that the Bible presents. There is a huge contradiction between the concept of God in the Old Testament and that in the New.

God is One, this is the biggest message of the Old Testament. It's the first Commandment, and the most important. Jesus himself makes this clear. If Paul's claim is intended as you have expressed, then God would no longer be One. God would be two, Father and Son. However, the church did not end here, they went on to claim that the Holy Spirit is also God, which makes God three. This is not the same religion as was taught in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

The Hebrew word for LORD is Yahweh which is God's covenant name (with Israel) "I Am"

Jesus said He existed before Abraham and referred to Himself as I Am.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

The Jews knew that Jesus was saying He was God. That was why they wanted to stone him.

John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10
30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

The Hebrew word for "God" used in Deuteronomy 6:4 is "Eloheim" which is plural. The Hebrew word for "one" used there is "echad" which is also plural, as in one bunch of grapes. There is another Hebrew word for one which is "yachid" which is singular, as in one grape, but God uses "echad" because of the plurality of the Godhead.

The plurality of God in the OT:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Genesis 11:7
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."


Yes, Jesus asked the man why he called Him good because only God is good, and Jesus was making a point. Why was the man calling Jesus good if He was only a man?

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The man goes on to tell Jesus that he has kept the commandments from his youth and asks Jesus what else he needs to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus tells him to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor and follow Him, but the man went away sad because he wanted to hold on to his wealth and the things of this world. Jesus goes on to tell his disciples that whoever will give up the things of this world (family, money, etc.) and follow Him will have eternal life. In other words believe/trust/have faith in Jesus (God) not money, family and the things of this world.

Also, Isaiah 9:6 and Micah 5:2 which are OT Messianic prophecies are very clear that the Messiah is to be God.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Micah 5:2
“ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

Jesus says He is the Messiah.

John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Isaiah 53 clearly shows that Messiah will come and die for our sins.

These verses also clearly show that the bible claims that Jesus is God and that Jesus claims to be God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

1 post from me just to chime in:

broozar you missed the point. In our religion, and according to the bible God IS everything, God created everything. It is a bit hard to explain other than saying that everything is made up of God. When he created, he created using himself, he spoke it into existance. For instance John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word (God's word), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." in other words this is saying that God spoke, his word was him and he was his word, therefore God and his word(creations and laws) are one. John also says in 1:2 that "He was with God in the beginning." "he" refers to Jesus, whom is his son but also God. It is hard to explain to a non-christian simply because you would have to read the words that Jesus spoke as well as the Gospels themselves to fully understand. Hopefully this will help you understand the belief:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

The belief is that God is God the father(creator), God the son (Jesus Christ) and God the holy spirit (comforter/helper). They are all one person and yet three...like I said maybe the link will help, but you have to understand one thing, in our faith God is not bound by physical constraints, the world in which he exists is spiritual, so we'll never know 100% about God.

ok...two posts:

Jesus was merely saying that he is currently in flesh. Later on, Jesus ascended to the right hand of God after his ressurection. Jesus only stated that he was not good because of himself being of flesh at the time, Jesus was born into sin, meaning he was born as a human being and after the whole deal with adam and eve man's nature has been sin, but Jesus never COMMITED sin. Therefore, by being born into sin on this earth he could not be called "good" when compared to God while being here.

i agree with smitty for that point

Jesus was asking the question forcing the man to clarify what he was asking.
you call me good? only God is good.
basically therefore: do you call me God and are you willing to listen to what i say?

I know that this thread is about does the bible really teach that Jesus IS God (not was, because Jesus DID rise from the dead and IS very much alive and without the resurrection we would have no hope), but the subject of the Holy Spirit has been brought up so I must interject here and say that the Holy Spirit like the Father (who is also Spirit) and Jesus (the Son or same as God) is also God and not just some force or something. The bible clearly states that God is One, but the bible also makes clear that God is three "persons".

Here are some OT references to the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God):

Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Exodus 31:3
"I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,

Exodus 35:31
"And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship;

Numbers 24:2
And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.

1 Samuel 10:10
When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 11:6
Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul mightily when he heard these words, and he became very angry.

1 Samuel 19:20
Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 19:23
He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

2 Chronicles 15:1
Now the Spirit of God came on Azariah the son of Oded,

2 Chronicles 24:20
Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest; and he stood above the people and said to them, "Thus God has said, ' Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD and do not prosper? Because you have forsaken the LORD, He has also forsaken you.'"

Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Ezekiel 11:24
And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God to the exiles in Chaldea So the vision that I had seen left me.

Here are some NT references of the Father and Holy Spirit:

Matthew 10:20
"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Luke 11:13
" If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

John 14:16
[ Role of the Spirit ] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Acts 2:33
"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!"

Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

I've already explained that the word Eloheim in Hebrew is plural for God (because of the plurality of the Godhead/Trinity), but Elohiem can be translated as gods, too. JulzMighty's explanation of the verse was correct. Why does Jesus reference the verse when He makes the claim to be the Son of God and also when He says that He and the Father are one? Because He is saying that He is the Son of God (same as God) and that He is God (I and the Father are one).

I agree.



God is Spirit and we cannot look upon Him and live, but the Son (Jesus) came to earth veiled in the flesh of man, so we could look upon Him. By the way, He was NOT born into sin. He was born into a sinful world, but because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Jesus was born without sin because the sin nature is past down through man (Adam). Jesus was tempted like us, but He never sinned because He is God. Even in the OT, the pre-incarnate Christ came to earth on more than one occasion. He walked with Adam in the cool of the day. He came to Abraham to announce that Sarah would give birth to the promised son (Isaac) and that He was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, He wrestled with Jacob and changed His name to Israel.



It was neither foolish nor blasphemy. Some did not recognize who Jesus was because they did not know the scriptures. Jesus even told the leaders of Israel this. Many did believe on Him (and still do today).



Jesus is fully God, but He was also fully man. He is referring here to his humanity, but being God He does know evertything. He is also pointing the people's thinking to God, so that once they understand that He is God, then they will understand that He knows everything.