Hello Conetic,

We have been having problems with Shader 3.0 and 3DGS on a Vista 64 bit machine.

Here is what is happening. On the Vista 64 bit machine, the 3.0 shader does not crash, but any entities, terrain, etc using the Shader 3.0 just doesn't render. Even though you can see the bounding boxes etc when you hit F11 twice.

So far on this Vista 64 bit machine we have tested 2 video cards, a ATI Radeon HD 4870 and a ATI Radeon HD 3300 card with the latest drivers for each. Both of these video cards are Shader 3.0 compatible.

We have been trying to figure out why the shader is not rendering, but have been unable to do so. The only thing we can figure out at this time is the Vista 64 OS might somehow be causing this in tandem with 3DGS for some reason. We have testing this machine a various other Shader 3.0 games with different engines and even on ShaderMarkv2.1 and 3dMark06. The Shader 3.0 seems to work fine on everything except the 3DGS engine with this Vista 64 bit system with these Ati HD cards.

Here is a picture of what is being rendered on this machine with Shader 3.0:



Here is what is rendering on various other systems we have that are XP or Vista 32 with a variety of Nvidia and Ati cards:



You will notice that any models or the terrain are not being rendered on the Vista 64 bit when using Shader 3.0. Like I said we have checked this system on various other games and engines without this Shader 3.0 rendering problem. Also, this system renders fine with 3DGS on Shader's that are below Shader 3.0 with 3DGS.

I guess the first question is, have you tested Shader 3.0 with the 3DGS engine on a Vista 64 bit machine? Because from our test so far this seems to be where the issue is, although there is still slight possibility that it could be the newest Ati cards or their drivers also not liking Shader 3.0 on 3DGS for whatever reason.

We are going to go ahead and install XP on this machine for further test to make sure it is not a Ati driver problem with these newer cards (thus possibly verifying it is a Vista 64 with 3DGS issue), but need to know if you have had actually ran Shader 3.0 with Vista 64 bit on any of your machines or if you have received any other reports on this particular problem? Whether it be the newer Ati HD cards/drivers or Vista 64 bit issue with 3DGS.

We are also planning to put a Nvidia 9800gtx card into the same system for test if we have too, but would prefer not to waste the money to do this test if at all possible if you already have any information on this issue.

Your help would be appreciated with this matter,
Sincerely,
Frederick

since vista64 and xp direvers are diffrent i suggest instaling an nvidia(take from one of the other machines) card on vista64 machine.

Good point Quadraxas. It's one of those pain in the butt problems to figure out.

The only thing we really know for sure is that Shader 3.0 runs on this machine with everything but 3DGS engine for some reason, and it is either the Ati HD drivers (or 64 bit drivers) or Vista 64 bit system that doesn't want to run correctly with 3DGS for some reason.

I still think we will test XP on the system (seperate hard drive, which he has available) with 32 bit drivers for the Ati Hd cards first, unless Conetic has some insight on the matter. If the Ati HD cards work with XP, then it almost certainly the Vista 64 OS (or 64 bit drivers, something 64 bit, sigh) 3DGS is not liking with Shader 3.0.

If that doesn't work, then we will try a Nvidia card with the Vista 64 bit OS after that, since the person with the machine has no Nvidia card at his disposal atm. After that test, if Shader 3.0 runs on a Nvidia 64 driver and not the Ati HD 64 driver, then we would have narrowed it down to the Ati 64 bit driver 3DGS doesn't like with Shader 3.0. If it runs on neither Ati 64 bit or Nividia 64 bit drivers, then 3DGS probably just doesn't like running Shader 3.0 with Vista 64 bit OS (or any 64 driver) as it is right now. Gotta love GameDev.

And the person doing the test is going to love us when he has to re-install Windows after all goes awry and go through that horrific process again, lol.

I hate being the ones doing these test for Conetic, but if we are going to realease a game, it has to work on both Vista 64 bit and Ati HD video cards, which ever one (or a combination of both) is not liking 3DGS at the moment for whatever reasons.

It's not like this system is having any issues with any Shader 3.0 games or applications other than 3DGS, which gives me a headache and the person whose system it is a migrane, since he has to do all the footwork to narrow down what the problem is by messing around on what is for now, a stable system. We will get it so he has to re-install Windows from scratch before it is all over I am sure, but hopefully not.

I have not read about anyone having Shader 3.0 shader problems with Ati HD video cards, but maybe no one has tried them on 3DGS with Shader 3.0 yet, but I am guessing it is more likely that someone has tested Shader 3.0 with a Ati HD video card on a 32 bit OS than someone testing Shader 3.0 with Vista 64 bit OS, but who knows.

It all gets back to the question, "Has Conetic tested Shader 3.0 on a Vista 64 bit OS (or any 64 bit OS) with 3DGS yet?" That would narrow things down immediately if they have and it is like working on a Nvidia Card with 64 bit drivers or something, then we would know it's probably just the Ati 64 bit drivers 3DGS is not liking. But if Conetic has never tested Shader 3.0 on any 64 bit OS with 3DGS, we know absolutely nothing at this point. If Conetic hasn't tested the latest hardware/software developments on the 3DGS engine, such as Shader 3.0 on a 64 bit OS, I would recommend they do so, the industry keeps moving forward, it would behoove them to keep pace.

Maybe Conetic has already done test also, which is what I am waiting to hear a response to before out team waste our time and money trying to resolve something which should have already been tested for with this product. I just don't like when I hear, "Well, there is no reason 3DGS shouldn't work with Shader 3.0 on a Vista 64 OS." I always think, "Well, have you actually tested it to make sure?"

Sorry, just venting now. I just get frustrated when everyone's modern hardware/OS always work on every other application/engine except with the engine we are creating our game with. We are probably just trying to push this engine father than what it is currently design for, but hopefully in the end our struggles will help keep 3DGS up to date also.

I would first check if the bug is caused by your shader, or by something on your PC. Try it with a dummy shader that does nothing, or for instance try it with Slin's shadow collection that uses model 3 and runs fine on my Vista64 PC at work, so it is compatible with Vista. If your problem is caused by some driver issue on your PC than Slin's shadows project wont run on your PC either. If it runs you know that you have to fix your shader.

I know that some shaders run differently on ATI, for instance ATI clips colors to the 0..1 range and nvidia doesnt. But this is a bug of the shader and not of ATI, and certainly not of Vista64.

It turned out being something to do with the ATI HD card's driver or 64 bit driver that didn't like PS 3.0 being used with VS 2.0 in the shader code (Not sure if it is just a 3DGS thing or not, but I am guessing not). When we changed the shader code to use PS 3.0 and VS 3.0 it seemed to resolve the issue.

So basically all we changed was VS 2.0 in code to use VS 3.0 processing instead.

Anyhow, sorry for getting all stressed there, was a bad day.

Moved from the bug forum to the shader forum.

well at least it isnt going to be a problem, because im not sure a card exists that has ps 3, but not vs 3.

Yup. Good point.