just because WE cant create matter from energy doesnt mean it cant be done. it can be done. we are just not that far.
ever heard of that large cauldron thingy? the oen that destroyed our world last fall? mini big bang
its simple. before the big bang, there was energy. and it took a while but one day it collided and BANG. universe born.
its of course so much more compelx but those are the easies words.
how everything came to be is just a simple answer: physics.
things behave the way they do because its all connected back to when everything was created. it took alot of turns, coincidence and stuff but in the end it works the way it works because it works. if it wouldnt work, it wouldnt be the way it is. took gazillion years to be that way. trial and error.
there cant be a god, godlike being or whatsoever because of the simple fact that it wouldnt follow the laws of nature. energy, physics, chemic reactions.
a god like entity would stand above those things and that is not possible.
its liek time traveling. just not possible. in the end, nothing we do matters, for there is no bigger meaning to anything. so the only thing that matters is what we do. cuz there is nothing else.

oh and by the way:
creating matter from energy:
a sperm and an egg meet. create a few cells. those cells take the energy from the women it grows in to form more cells...

one can mindwipe people. implant them new memories. make them go crazy or forget who they are. create sleeper agents. completely new beings based on the templates of the brain.
if there is a soul, this wouldnt be possible. and if there is no soul, why would one belive in god if there is nothing left of you after you die?

sorry, just have to question a few things here

-why would a god that transcends a physical existance follow the laws of physics?
you look from your perspective and from truths we gauge within the physical realm, how do you not know there is a non-physical god applying within a broader set of truths?
if there could be a multiverse 'sea of bubbles' outside our universe, perhaps there could be a further 'sea', and god resides there, maybe even with a lot of other 'stuff' or beings

-how is time travel not possible?
not that that is so important to this discussion.


-perhaps the main characteristics of a person to do with their mind, isn't the same as a 'soul'. so a person who develops as a character their whole life, is then mindwiped, and is completely changed from our perspectives - that is only their way of behaving and characteristics that changes, but it is not someone else. so i guess, a person is more than a leaf, even if we can't measure for where a soul 'resides'

just some thoughts

-why would a god that transcends a physical existance follow the laws of physics?
you look from your perspective and from truths we gauge within the physical realm, how do you not know there is a non-physical god applying within a broader set of truths?
if there could be a multiverse 'sea of bubbles' outside our universe, perhaps there could be a further 'sea', and god resides there, maybe even with a lot of other 'stuff' or beings

A: because it would make the laws of phyics, chemicals and such irrelevant. also, the same question for you: how do you know that there isnt a god, a multiverse or anything? the answer si always the same, we dont know. but we don know the laws of our universe. and those laws state that there cant be a god, for if there is, the whole laws would be for, as we in austria say, for the fish...


-how is time travel not possible?
not that that is so important to this discussion.

A. because thats a paradox. time is relevant to the space you live in. you cant travel to the past, because there is no past. its always now. time traveling woudl only be possible if you are able to travel through the dimensions where time flows differently. and then, you could only travel into the future, but never into the past.


-perhaps the main characteristics of a person to do with their mind, isn't the same as a 'soul'. so a person who develops as a character their whole life, is then mindwiped, and is completely changed from our perspectives - that is only their way of behaving and characteristics that changes, but it is not someone else. so i guess, a person is more than a leaf, even if we can't measure for where a soul 'resides'

A: thing is, theoretically, if there is a soul, and you mindfry somebody, this person dies and the soul goes to heaven. and if you create anotehr persona, does this one have a new soul?
not gonna happen. the pure essence of yourself is your soul. according to most religions, you, your conciusness, your equalation to good and evil, thats what you are, what dfines you, is your soul.
but all that is just the product of our surrondings. take a baby from, say, iran. its parents are hardcore muslims. if you take this soul thingy, then the baby is muslim too. so what happens if you take the kid and raise it in, say, america, with american ideals, captialism ect... do you think this kid will be anything else than american?
or the otehr way. take an american baby, who has christian parents, a whle bloodline of christians. does this give the kid a christian soul? if you rais it in kabul for example with muslim ideals, the kid will be musil, think and act like a muslim. if there is a soul, this would not work.

question:
if there is a god/gods, wich one is the right one? also, what happens to all those who have the wrong god and dont know, those who die too young to eve know whats up?

do you belive in god? and if so, dont you think its kinda sad to belive in a being that controls us? do you want to be controled? slave moral, nietzsche woudl say. are you too weak to be your own master? or are you afraid of whats to come? are you afraid that everything you do is useless, a waste?
let me tell you something: in the end, we all die. everyone
no matter who or what, everything dies. a million years ago, there were a few thousand humans. now, there are a few billion. where did all those humans come from? did god just put a new soul into each and all of them? when is this going to end?
there is no god. you can belive it or not. does not matter. nothing matters. nothing matters ever. because you are your own master. if you want to belvie in god, you just lessen the impact of all the responsibility you have. and that tells alot about you, doesnt it?

Right. Thats my point exactly. People who claim that there is nothing beyond the afterlife or that there is no God do so from a limited viewpoint. Its analogous to a fish declaring that there is no air because the fish has only water for his experience. We dont know enough to make any conclusions.


To fill the gaps in our knowledge both God-beleievers and science-believers inject their own opinions. One has faith in God, the other has faith in science. But they are both faith because our knowledge has gaps. Huge gaps.

thanks a lot for your reply



I agree, that all our beliefs are built on assumptions. rationalism taken to its fullest extreme would say that we cannot even fully prove our existence, for that proof that we'd also assume exists, does so on the same level (proof is not self-evident). but of course many don't believe that we don't exist (us-not-existing would be an assumption in itself), thus we have to make some assumptions; we can't prove anything 100%, some assumptions must be made but then tested for logical consistency.

why would the laws be irrelevant, just if they aren't completely universal to everything? who says they're the binding force of all, simply becuase they are that to what is observable?




"time is relevant to the space you live in."
are you basing that on results from tests/observations or is your assumption? there are scientists working on a machine to travel things backwards through time, but it would only be possible to go back as far as the machine exists. but good luck to them to even achieve the right conditions...




i mean what if the mind and soul were connected, but not completely the same
so if you mindwipe someone, with their body and brain still there, perhaps their personality is lost, but not their soul? the new 'person' to come from there will be the same at a 'soul-level'
but i see your point, and some of this goes into howthehellcouldwepossiblyknow territory. at what point is someone dead? at what point would their soul leave? perhaps that process would be outside time like god would be? but profound truths cannot always be simply found or stated






hopefully the god would take this into consideration and not be too harsh, eg: too young to understand/search = free from concequence. but if we were made by a god it mightn't matter to him the implications of if we didn't discover him, or he might just let it be that way for some reason even if he does care



i do believe in a God. i am not very controlled by him though. i exercise a free will, and although i believe there is a proper way to live, relative to how God made it, and perhaps therein lies at least a small part of my responsibilty, i don't always live by it. and i don't believe he hates me for it.
if he did make all this then he is the maker of truth, therefore also the source of truth, therefore living his way would be the right way, and at least some part of the reason to live. anything else, in that context, would be fake. is complete independence in life what we need? and if there is a god perhaps being one's own master 100% is a false dream anyway
don't think i am constrained by it all, though
"nothing matters"
from your perspective. i don't agree. who knows which is right. both are assumptions based on what we can see.
"...lessen the impact of all the responsibility you have"
if nothing matters, then what responsibilty do we have?

i only talking about the alst question now...
if nothing matters, what responsibility do we have?
because that is, by far, one of the most important questions in life...

there are people out there, who talk about niveau, webeing better than animals, some people are being smarter and thus better than other, and if you for example kill a murderer, youre nothing better than him...
but who cares anyway?

for all the wrong reasons, people, for centuries, belived that they are better than the rest of all those lives on this planet.
some think we deserve more rights than animals. some think we are better because we know how to use guns....

what responsibility do we have of nothing exists, if there is no god?
there is no real answer to that question. only my personal opinion. and thats, basically, the answer.
you are your responsibility, to you and yourself only.
can you live with the things you do, the consequences for your actions? or cant you.
nobody stops you from killing anyone. how could one. we dont know what you think, and this is good. although i hardly disagree with saying we have a free will, because for all we know, we dont, but i agree with saying we can do what we want.

so, lets get back to the question here.
first, lets define responsibility. anotehr one of those terms humans created for whatever reason.
it depends on what you want to be. ike good or evil, its always what we think we are.
a terrorist thinks he is good, same does the pope, or the little boy who gave a poor fella his sandwich. they all think they are the good guys.
so whats good and whats evil?

nietzsche once said, that the slave people speak in terms of good and evil, while the master people speak in terms of good and bad... he was right with that.

the question is, do you want to be good or bad? not good or evil. bad in a sense of bad for whatever you belive it might be.

for example, me. i want to be good for this generation. i want to show the people that they can live without killing each other. no silly liebral left winged multi culturism utopia that wont work. no. but just leaving others alone with whatever they are, and there is peace...

its simple. if all terrorists stop what they are doing and instead take care of themselves. if all warlords stop caring about who the damn has said anything to them. if all those naysayers and world-better-makers shut the hell up and instead take care of their own lives...
what would happen, if everybody just watches himself/herself and shuts the hell up?

i dont belive in god. or afterlife. or whatever. i belive that its my responsibility to live my live as happyly as i can without annoying anyone. i dont want to hurt anyone i dont want to save anyone. i just ant to be left alone.
and if everyone would do this, there wouldbe no need for saving. if someone needshelp, i help. but i dont run around telling people how to lvie their lives. i dotn try to save a few pooor souls froom themselves. its their problem. and my problems are mine. not yours. not anyones... mine...

so to answer your question about responsibility:
your own. you are your responsibility. you alone. nothing else. and whatever you do with that, is still your responsibility...

The question I always ask a believer in god when he explains that his god is outside the realm of science, is undetectable and basically invisible to everyone I ask what is the difference between a god that is undetectable, invisible and outside the realm of reality and no god at all and I haven't got an answer that doesn't start with the magic words ”I believe ...”.

When it comes to religion there are much larger claims because they are founded on the idea that god rules and interferes in human affairs in this reality and that is clearly something that can be examined by science. As many psychologist have shown the human mind is very susceptible to hallucinations and wish thinking which finally has something to do with our large brains. There is only one objective base and these are the facts supported by evidence what you believe maybe provides comfort but is not supported by evidence.

And these are the facts supported by a large amount of evidence:
--------------------------------------------
We are evolved apes .
The earth is 4 billion years old.
95 percent of all the species that have ever lived on this planet are gone extinct.
The Andromeda galaxy is heading toward our galaxy at a rapid amount of speed.
The universe is 4 billion years old and not yet have we found any support for the god created the universe story.
-------------------------------------------
Also the universal constants that some people claim to be proof of gods existence are not proof at all we have to be in the universe that supports life otherwise we wouldn't have discussions like these.

Morality is clearly a product of evolution a long time ago we lived in small groups and their advantage was that they worked together and helped each other to not get eaten by all kinds of predators.

And finally the afterlife when I have done social service in Germany I meet a lot of people with Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson and their brain were so much damaged that they saw the world completely different and even forgot about their family and loved ones ,now imagine what happens if your brain dead.

To sum it all up there is no reason to believe in a god in this universe and if you do believe thats ok as long as you are not imposing it on others or you called it based on facts. When you are religious thats another story because you are indirectly imposing it on others just read your holy book what happens to the unbelievers.

You can check this very easily as I did as a child: You can do a dozen or hundreds of prayers and then note down if your prayer changed anything. Write it down and count how many prayers really had any effect.

In my case nobody listend and the only success was: I saw a falling star after a lot of prayers that I wished to see one. But this was coincidence because lots of falling stars went down at this time.
Though I have to admit that a person really in need to believe in something could take such events as a sign.

Some researchers did the same with several groups of test persons. Prayers did not have any significant effect.
If you still believe, then it is all this: blind believing.

But in the end we all believe in something, in our kids, in our strenghs in our morality whatever. So I think it is not that bad. But it is bad if you kill other people for not believing in the same. And it is not very smart to be convinced that you have the one-and-only best-of-the-best objective to believe in.
There is a lot of variety and that is good. It makes this world colorful and interesting. We should not change this.

@spike

i can understand where you come from with a lot of what you said, but i'll just say a few things

personally i think, if there is no god then there is no responsibility (kind of what you implied i think)
there is only 'chance' and chaos, what randomness we make of it, and no absolute truth, morals, or reason for anything. those who try to explain morality or any of that without a god will struggle to. however some people use that belief to do whatever they want, like murder (if nothing matters why not?), but that is assuming their philosophy is right anyway (although people will hurt others through most philosophies seemingly).

so IF that were all true then i see no difference between a self-centered philosophy of looking after oneself or looking to take care of others,
but i think a self-centered philosophy isn't right, and only seeking to please oneself shouldn't be our aim, nor do i think it will solve world problems, nor bring personal happiness. but that is my belief, i probably cannot prove this and i won't go further into it

i think people's self-centeredness are a cause of a lot of problems in the world rather than a solution.
we are a very social bunch, and to serve ourselves or whatever it'll sometimes have to do with other people, so when we do bad to acheive our ends sometimes it can bring pain to others

but if there's no god, then chaos and randomness are all we will ever reap. the pain in the world and wars are simply the natural outcome of what would be the apparent cause of everything, chaos and randomness.


@ sebcrea

thanks for your comment, whether it was directed at me or not i'm not completely sure

i'll borrow a few thoughts for my response.


i believe you are right that within religion with a god that gets involved in human affairs you'd want proof of it.
what proof are you after?
they are digging up all the things of the bible for instance, like the battles, cities, even walls in foreign countries to the israelites with some of the prophecies which critics decided didn't exist. the bible's version of events is not without empirical evidence.

as to the afterlife, or what happens after life, why would one's brain or body affect it, unless indeed it is a religion to do with the afterlife using the same body? ones body can deteriorate separate to the mind, or vice versa anyway, why would a soul die with it?

as to your basing your beliefs from ground up around facts and science, here's a point for one philosophy of why it can't be done (i am not personally against using facts and science though)

do you believe in athiestic evolution?
if so then i would guess you'd believe that time & chance & matter created everything, including our minds.
if that's so then you'd have to agree that truth as an absolute category no longer exists, as truth by nature is absolute.
time, matter, and chance are changing, they are not absolute, you never get time chance and matter remaining the same.
truth cannot be derived from such changing un-absolutes, it would have to be not-absolute.

if that is correct, and there is no absolute truth, then how do you know it is true? that time & chance & matter created your mind or that any science is true?

as einstein put it: "scientists make poor philosophers." a lot of scientists don't realise about the assumptions they make about science.
there are philisophical assumptions at the foundations of all the sciences, maths, theology, etc.
since when was science the ultimate truth of the universe? analyse one's own philosophies and you'll see the assumptions there. science isn't self-evident proof of anything.

separately, it is an interesting illustration that g.k.chesterton makes:
God is like the sun, you cannot look at it, but without it you cannot look at anything else.
But to a scientist who thinks he can explain everything with his formula, he says his god is like the moon, completely confined, defined, and completely scrutable.

just cos you can study science, and it seems logical, is it the only thing?

do you really think science is an absolute truth? do you think absolutely all existance and everything can be explained and understood by a series of mathematical equations? are you only willing to believe in what you can comprehensively understand?
they are big assumptions, and you have nothing more than that to base it on.
you'd just believe it to be so. and that was your argument against people who believe in a god.

(but just so you know, i do believe science with my philosophy can be true. i am not against emperical evidence, and science. but it's not on it's own self-evident as such.)

Well actually I don't believe I go with the facts, whats important is not what sounds plausible but what is supported by hard facts. You seem to invent a lot of things to backup an approach of magic and superstition, show me a science study of respected scientist that came to the conclusion that there is a soul. Why are you making such a claim because its seems to appeal to you but your argument has simply no foundation.

I never talked about the absolute truth, but all religions do, they claim they already know after you read the bible, quran you don't need any further explanation. This is the definition of a totalitarian system which is highly immoral and a good example of what such believes can lead society.

I ask again what is the difference between a god that is undetectable, invisible ,outside the realm of reality and no god at all ?




Well first of all the universe is the exact opposite of chance there are process at work like natural selection which have nothing to do with chance, so why are you making such a claim ?

So far there is no evidence to suggest that the universe was designed. You can believe what ever you want but if that believe claims that there is a celestial dictator (god) than it is highly immoral. And we all know what happens if people who believe that are in charge Iran, North Korea …


Also philosophy can be chilly shally a pure philosophic approach is no evidence actually most philosophers try the leave a creator out of the game.