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Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: darkinferno] #398411
04/01/12 20:26
04/01/12 20:26
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,993
Karlsruhe
PadMalcom Offline
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PadMalcom  Offline
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Posts: 1,993
Karlsruhe
@Pietro: Your screenshots are awesome!

@BoH_Havok: Good to see you around again! laugh

Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PadMalcom] #398913
04/08/12 19:17
04/08/12 19:17
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
PietroNifosi Offline
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PietroNifosi  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
First of all thanks PadMalcom.

Havoc, could you give me a new estimate for the next release?
I've nearly finished this first medieval scenario (town plus surrounding forest) and I have to say the framerate is really bad at this stage since the level is very detailed in terms of polygons and textures size.


Dear Fans, to celebrate our 500.000 downloads,
Evhacon 2 is now FREE TO PLAY on Amazon Underground!
HD Version: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FKSVG2
LD Version (Optimized for lower devices): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0719TXFJN
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PietroNifosi] #399636
04/17/12 21:10
04/17/12 21:10
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
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ratchet  Offline
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Posts: 2,488
Because you need heavy LOD and some clever occlusion !
Like AAA games do.
Play skyrim and you 'll notcie LOD in :
- models
- shadwos distance and resolution
- textures (mip mapping)
Fable 3, Skyrim, etc ... etc ...

A complex game can't be a simple copy and paste or in this case this is some game with some top down view !

So you have lot of work laugh


Last edited by ratchet; 04/17/12 21:11.
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: ratchet] #399756
04/19/12 10:38
04/19/12 10:38
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
PietroNifosi Offline
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PietroNifosi  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
Hey ratchet, I'm well aware of that, infact that level has already models and textures lods, It's just that gamestudio can't handle the whole thing running.
Shade-C is a very complex set of shaders, and once I add some extra AI and other stuff like waving grass and critters reacting with player (like birds scattering away), the whole thing starts crippling.
Let's face it, I'm really pushing the engine to its limits here.
Also the Shade-C version i'm using atm doesn't really handle alpha channels (transparencies) well.. unless I use hard edges, which is a great downside for the scenario. Therefore my vegetation doesn't look as good as my architectures but instead it flickers in the distance. That's really bad.

Right now I'm studing how to create good looking lastgen forest scenarios, since I'm not satisfied with what I've got atm.

Soon I'll also open a thread showing my Gamestudio REEL 2012.

Last edited by PietroNifosi; 04/21/12 08:58.

Dear Fans, to celebrate our 500.000 downloads,
Evhacon 2 is now FREE TO PLAY on Amazon Underground!
HD Version: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FKSVG2
LD Version (Optimized for lower devices): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0719TXFJN
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PietroNifosi] #399904
04/23/12 06:30
04/23/12 06:30

C
chris_oat
Unregistered
chris_oat
Unregistered
C



Originally Posted By: PietroNifosi
...and once I add ... stuff like waving grass ... the whole thing starts crippling.


Shade-C will have a WIND Flag in the Final Version which does waving for grass etc so dont waste precious time and memory with that laugh
Note: The WIND Flag does exist already in the Beta, but it does nothing yet.

Last edited by chris_oat; 04/23/12 06:31.
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: ] #399928
04/23/12 14:24
04/23/12 14:24
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
PietroNifosi Offline
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PietroNifosi  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
yep i'm aware of that


Dear Fans, to celebrate our 500.000 downloads,
Evhacon 2 is now FREE TO PLAY on Amazon Underground!
HD Version: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FKSVG2
LD Version (Optimized for lower devices): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0719TXFJN
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PietroNifosi] #399934
04/23/12 17:31
04/23/12 17:31
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
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HeelX  Offline
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H

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
Originally Posted By: PietroNifosi
Also the Shade-C version i'm using atm doesn't really handle alpha channels (transparencies) well.. unless I use hard edges, which is a great downside for the scenario. Therefore my vegetation doesn't look as good as my architectures but instead it flickers in the distance. That's really bad.


That is common problem among all other games out there and is not related to the A8 engine in general.There are several options available when rendering transparent effects with alpha on consumer graphics hardware:

Alpha-testing uses a one bit value output by the pixel shader to determine if the output fragment is visible or not. Alpha-testing integrates well with common z-buffer techniques since all output pixels are fully opaque. However rendering with alpha-testing commonly gives rise to aliasing at the alpha edges, as you already mentioned.

Alpha-blending uses a scalar value output by the pixel shader to blend a rendered fragment with the destination pixel data. This is, when you "just" render your models without anything else... Though, when rendering layers of foliage with alpha-blending, z-buffering artifacts are common. This can largely be resolved if the rendered primitives are sorted to draw furthest from the camera first. Sorting primitives before rendering is usually a prohibitive CPU cost for game rendering and is not supported by Gamestudio, as JCL stated several times throughout the last 10 years here (geez... I'm getting old) smile

Real-time techniques for order independent transparency are becoming feasible on the latest hardware. Although interesting, these techniques are not yet a realistic approach for current generation games consoles and should als not be considered for PC games as well IMHO!

A third approach is called Alpha-to-coverage, it converts the alpha value output by the pixel shader into a coverage mask. This coverage mask is combined with the standard multisample coverage mask to determine which samples should be updated. Alpha-to-coverage, when combined with alpha testing, gives softer edges without sacrificing the ability to use the z-buffer with unsorted primitives. Although this is an improvement on simple alpha testing, the resulting alpha gradients can be of poor quality compared to those obtained in alpha blending. This is particularly true when using a low number of samples or on hardware that doesn't support flexible coverage masks.

The Alpha-to-coverage approach is used in several games out there and can be used very well with forward renderes like A8 together with postprocessing stages. I do something similar in my SSAO solution for softalpha sprites, but in a different way.

In practice, you render the scene twice or three times, depends on your setup (Images were taken from a whitepaper from the creators of the racing game PURE):

once without foliage:



once with writing out the blended alpha values and with a max operator:



and onces with foliage only (using alpha testing):



Then you combine everything in a postprocessing stage and you get softer edges with (kinda) sorted polygons:



So, theoretically, you could extend Shade-C by yourself or you ask BocHavoc if he implements exactly this technique.

[EDIT]

I have to admit that this works well for large scale foliage. Maybe you have to come up with a slightly different solution for grass foliage, due to the high amount of quads rendered. I could imagine a dynamically sorted model based on bones on the GPU could work out, too.

Last edited by HeelX; 04/23/12 18:01.
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: HeelX] #399937
04/23/12 22:10
04/23/12 22:10
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
Superku Offline
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Superku  Offline
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Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
Thanks for this post, HeelX, could you please post the link to the paper?
Quote:
This can largely be resolved if the rendered primitives are sorted to draw furthest from the camera first. Sorting primitives before rendering is usually a prohibitive CPU cost for game rendering and is not supported by Gamestudio, as JCL stated several times throughout the last 10 years here (geez... I'm getting old)

What do you mean with "primitives" in this case and what exactly is not supported?

Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: ] #399938
04/23/12 22:25
04/23/12 22:25
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
darkinferno Offline
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darkinferno  Offline
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Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
Originally Posted By: chris_oat
The WIND Flag does exist already in the Beta, but it does nothing yet.


It does work, sadly I don't have the sources anymore but I can confirm it works as I've used it for grasses and trees, hmm, I think you may have to reorganize some of the shader skills though

shadeC is rather nice but I realized most people don't even look into tweaking it, you will always need your own custom settings laugh

Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: darkinferno] #399941
04/23/12 22:35
04/23/12 22:35
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
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lostclimate  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
Originally Posted By: darkinferno
[quote=chris_oat]
shadeC is rather nice but I realized most people don't even look into tweaking it, you will always need your own custom settings laugh

Yes, but then you break upgrade compatibility. Granted, wouldn't have been that bad when this last update had first been released since there was long delay, but it sounds like boh_havoc is still working on one so idk how much I'd want to deviate.

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