Yeah god designed us there can be no doubt about that but I also think god is an ape (of course there is no evidence for god). So do have any arguments to make or are you just preaching to use by making bad games and pretending well god made me design it so poorly. What you are basicly saying well humans can build a computer thats because god made us the way we are, and reason is because I said so.

Sorry dude I think with your way of handling this problem you have only proven that you're poorly evolved primate like the rest of us, but we don't pretend to claim something without having evidence.

Whatever you took when you saw the "spirits" stop taking it.

But let's assume, what you say about spirits and gods is true. You say they live forever. So they live for an infinite time. Now you say time does not exist.
This does not make sense. You mix up infinity and zero. That's an infinite error!

So if god has been living forever, there must have been an infinite time BEFORE he created us! So he waited an infinite time! What did he wait for? And what caused him to create us? He could have waited longer or briefer. And when did he start to wait? Never, because he has always existed and all the time he has existed he has waited and planned to make us; so god living forever does not make sense.

If god living forever does not make sense, he must be designed, because he must be complex because he designed us, so god does need a designer! And who designed the designer of god, who is, as you claim, our designer?


If I drop a teapot, like the one, that orbits the sun, it will shatter, and there will be shards. The exact way these shards are arranged on the floor is complex and it's unlikely that they will arrange the exact same way if I drop an other teapot again. You say, everything that is compley needs a designer. So is the way the shards are lying designed?

And a great example of Lukas about the teapot. So I think we can safely say something complex is not necessary designed. God did not design the pattern of shards on the floor of the broken teapot, nor did he design a rock because the ant doesn't understand why it's hard, and nor did he create the human being because we can't understand how we got here. Those are NOT the reasons anything is designed by whoever.

Now, if you would state: "'God' designed the universe just before the very start. He arranged the energy before the big bang in such a way that we now walk here on planet earth.", then a lot more people would find your argumentation plausible. A possibility that may be true. One would find it more unlikely than another, but in fact, chances are 50/50 that it happened this way. As long as we have no clue whatsoever, it's a 50/50 chance to us.

Well, I wouldn't say it's a 50/50 chance. You don't know if there is a flying teapot orbiting the sun or if there is an invisible pink unicorn or if the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, but you wouldn't say the propability is 50/50.
Else I could ask: What is the propability that not god, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster arranged the energy? Or that Zeus did it? Or that no one did it? The propability for each possibility can't just be set 50%.

Well... yes, I was confusing the chances that it may be a possibility with the chances that it is a fact. It's either something arranging the energy, or nothing arranging the energy. We can't really tell, thus 50%. But indeed it's getting out of scope.

I'd vote for the spaghetti monster though.

Well okay, but the shards from the teapot are useless yes?
The teapot cannot hold anymore tea.

This example resembles the examples of present day DNA cloning.
it's only a destruction and mutation of something that used to be complex.

and i'm still waiting for conitec to give me that free download. they are the gods around this forum.
<there are many gods>

they can do it. <just joking>

or else A7 <the lower complex> was really designed and the human body was not designed. <the higher complexity>

good to see that all evidence i bring up is completely ignored...

i know what you mean spike... *pat*

You'd be surprised how often we don't really know whether it was designed or not. A lot of natural processes can make objects look like they were designed. Oldest example in the book are of course rocks that look like faces, but were never touched by human tools. Interpreting such rocks as man-made would be false, but not illogical if you don't do more research.



You still haven't responded to why it must be designed. Complexity says nothing about whether it must be designed or not, in fact.. most inventions are actually amazingly simple. Aren't those designed too?



We're not overlooking the complexity at all, we're just convinced it's not a given fact that everything that must be complex must have been designed. In fact, you're overlooking how evolution shaped us into what we are now. You could call this a passive design (evolution has no aim), but it doesn't mean some higher being must have designed us.

In fact, it makes no sense, as it would mean he created a universe, gave it a kick and billions of years later we came into existence. Doesn't sound very plausible to me at all, especially knowing how evolution is a process that still goes on until this very day. We are by far not yet the 'end product', in fact there's no such thing as an 'end product'.



Our logic is based upon knowledge and we're not assuming weird, physically impossible things though.



We can talk to the developers, we can understand the tools involved, we have some sight into what has been developed when..... all that in itself is more than enough proof of it being designed.

Remember... we can't talk to God, we don't have a clue what he could possibly have used to create anything, nor do we really have a good view onto when he created what (after all, most creationists believe our earth isn't billions of years old, which leads to an obvious problem following this kind of logic.)



That's exactly true for humans. No human nor designer holds a copyright on our species.

Yup, truly common quite-fundamentalistic-christian-online-forum-user behaviour it seems