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Argh! #306561
01/23/10 05:31
01/23/10 05:31
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
New York, USA
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Preypacer Offline OP
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Preypacer  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2008
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New York, USA
Hi all...

So, I'm not even sure where to begin here.

I've had a 3DGS license now for... geeze... since early A6, at least and upgraded to A7. I've yet do actually *do* with the system, and it's driving me nuts.

The thing is... I can't seem to get traction with learning how to do anything with the system because it seems like the tutorials I find fall under one or more of these categories:

- In a language I can't understand (usually German; and I'm half German, go figure)
- Link to 404 pages or are otherwise dead
- Are for old versions of the system that are no longer valid
- Are far too specialized for *specific* tasks, and not very beginner friendly
- probably other reasons I'm forgetting

I've downloaded the tutorials from here, I've gone through the wiki, I've Googled, I've looked on YouTube, I've gone through AcknexUnlimited, etc. etc. Believe me... I've tried to find resources to work with, many times... to no avail.

At the same time, I see projects being done with it and people making progress. How in the heck are you folks figuring this all out? I mean, I consider myself a pretty intelligent person and maybe it's just that I'm over-complicating it for myself, or something's just not "clicking"... but I can't even figure out a solid foundation that I can build off from.

I have ideas for games from the simplest little "arcade-style" up to full RPGs that I'd love to work on, but I can't even get a guy walking on a terrain that I created and imported myself.

To be sure... though this post might seem like a long rambling complaint, I'm posting it because I *want* to use 3DGS. I like the engine. I've seen what can be done with it and I believe it would be a great solution for me to realize some of the projects I've in mind. I just have this huge hurdle to get over which is... figuring out how the heck to get *moving* with it.

So perhaps the best way to end this is to ask those of you here who have worked with 3DGS and either have projects under way or perhaps even released.. what were your hurdles when first starting out? What did you do to get over them? What tips could you provide? Perhaps some good resources online that I've completely missed in my searches?

Thanks for any help.



Last edited by Preypacer; 01/23/10 06:14.
Re: Argh! [Re: Preypacer] #306570
01/23/10 08:56
01/23/10 08:56
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,143
United Kingdom
DJBMASTER Offline
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DJBMASTER  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,143
United Kingdom
Hi, I was in the same situation when I started. The thing that really helped me get moving was the Lite-C workshop. You'll learn the fundamentals of the engine, and how things link together.

You can download the workshop from here...

http://server.conitec.net/down/litec.zip

You can complete them all in a relatively short amount of time, but it'd the recommended way of approaching the engine.

Re: Argh! [Re: DJBMASTER] #306600
01/23/10 13:37
01/23/10 13:37
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
New York, USA
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Preypacer Offline OP
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Preypacer  Offline OP
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Thanks for the reply and that would certainly be a good place to start in development terms, and I intend to do that - actually to re-start, since I'd been working through them already in the past. That part is fine.

Would still like to find even one good terrain tutorial that's current and shows how to use the current terrain system from a designer's perspective (I'm a designer type :-p) - I'd think that's more of a design thing than a coding thing. Anything like that around that I might have missed?

Last edited by Preypacer; 01/23/10 13:49.
Re: Argh! [Re: Preypacer] #306605
01/23/10 14:07
01/23/10 14:07
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,143
United Kingdom
DJBMASTER Offline
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DJBMASTER  Offline
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Have you checked on the Gamestudio wiki? If you look at the 'Content Creation' section there are 2 different terrain tutorials...

http://www.opserver.de/wiki/index.php/Content_Creation_Tutorials

Re: Argh! [Re: DJBMASTER] #306611
01/23/10 15:39
01/23/10 15:39
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
New York, USA
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Preypacer Offline OP
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Preypacer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: DJBMASTER
Have you checked on the Gamestudio wiki? If you look at the 'Content Creation' section there are 2 different terrain tutorials...

http://www.opserver.de/wiki/index.php/Content_Creation_Tutorials


Hey there...

I have actually. Thing is, they're app specific; how to create a terrain with "x" software. While I love goofing around in L3DT, I just don't like it overall for terrain creation... there's a list of reasons why, but here isn't the place to list them. I've never liked Terragen. Not that they're bad apps.. I'm just not really a fan of them.

Some tutorials require you to use a shader, some don't... Some seem to use the different tools in 3DGS in different ways... those seem very "personal preference" sort of tutorials.

Here's the thing... When Conitec started working on the terrain system or, at least, in its current iteration, they must have implemented it with some specific work flow in mind that it would all boil down to regardless of what applications were used. That's what I'm looking for; a very basic "If you want to get a working, navigable terrain into 3DGS, here's the steps you must follow". Then, from there, perhaps provide more advanced tutorials that build off that, such as "If you want to implement a tutorial with shader-driven texture splatting, you must take these additional steps..." and so forth.

It should be as generic and non-software specific as possible. The user should be left to apply the workflow to the graphics apps they prefer.

That's what I'm looking for and can't seem to find, because every one I've seen has called for specific graphics applications. I'm interested in learning the workflow of 3DGS itself; not the workflow of 3DGS when used in conjunction with "x, y and z", because in those tutorials the line between what's 3DGS specific and what's app-specific becomes very blurred.

What's also good about that is, learing how 3DGS itself handles such a task, it provides a foundation, or context, from which you can add on. For example.. once I understand how terrains are handled "in 3DGS language" - absent of any external applications - it would then make applying that knowledge to other apps easier because I understand the context I'm doing everything in. I realize I'm creating this specific bitmap, in this specific way, with these specific settings and putting it in this specific location because of how 3DGS handles such assets.

Simply saying "do this, now do this, now save it here and open it here and do this, now open this script, change these lines and save, now do this..." isn't really helpful to understanding what I'm doing; I'm merely following steps. Sadly, most of the tutorials I've looked at are delivered in just such a dry way.

This is especially so for something like applying shaders to the terrain for texture-splatting... understanding how 3DGS handles terrains by itself would provide a better context for understanding what the scripts are doing and why.

And, really, that same approach could be applied to other key areas of the system. If there's one major complaint I have with 3DGS it's how you have to scour and rummage through the internet, and wikis and Google and YouTube, etc.. to find basic tutorials that, really, should be provided by Conitec on their own site. It especially doesn't help that many of the tutorials you'll find refer to a much older version of the engine and don't necessarily apply anymore.

Hopefully that makes sense.



Last edited by Preypacer; 01/23/10 16:45.
Re: Argh! [Re: Preypacer] #306624
01/23/10 16:49
01/23/10 16:49
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
New York, USA
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Preypacer Offline OP
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Preypacer  Offline OP
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New York, USA
On second thought...

Nevermind.

I was just going through the Wiki. I saw the bit about the template 7 system and thought "hey that might be a good way to jump in and get my feet wet at least". So, in looking to check it out, I followed the download link located here... and got an error page. This goes right back to the second issue I listed in my first post... broken links.

Conitec... Seriously guys... start doing a better job of providing and tracking resources for this system. 3DGS's support is amateur, at best; or a clear indication that you really don't care at worst. I can point to half a dozen projects run by smaller teams with less overall experience who proivde 100x the support you do for your own product.

I admire many of the projects I've seen being done with this system... but I think I admire the people who've managed to get past the horrible documentation and support this engine has even more. I don't know how you do it. Must take a lot more perseverance than even I have - and I have a lot, considering I keep coming back to try again, only to be put off for the same reasons every time.

Thanks to those who posted replies in this thread. I appreciate your time and feedback.

I just can't be bothered to deal with a product I have to struggle with to find any kind of basic, current and accurate support for.


Last edited by Preypacer; 01/23/10 16:51.
Re: Argh! [Re: Preypacer] #306632
01/23/10 17:14
01/23/10 17:14
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 586
Austria
Petra Offline
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Petra  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 586
Austria
Why don't you just begin with the tutorial and stay with it long enough to get a clue how the program works? Your whining is embarrassing.

The Wiki content is written not by Conitec but by users, and naturally is of varying quality. For getting a solution from the Wiki, you should already have some basic knowledge and know what you're looking for.

The tutorial and manual are easy to understand for most people, they are actually much better than the docs of other engines that I tried before. But game development is not for anyone. When your talents lie elsewhere, don't whine, take it easy! laugh

Re: Argh! [Re: Preypacer] #306633
01/23/10 17:15
01/23/10 17:15
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,207
Germany, Magdeburg
Rei_Ayanami Offline
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Rei_Ayanami  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,207
Germany, Magdeburg
Hey!

Conitec is doing a great job! The support is nice, and the most tuts are from the users or old, you might be right there, but fot the summer/spring are new tuts anounced wink

The engine has a great manual which helps very often. I learned all the basics with the aum and lite-c workshop - this is the best help, beside the manual, you can get !


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