You argue with Franks arguments and in the same sentence you define "reality"...?

Actually I understand Sebcrea. Here is a definition of reality:

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be.[1] In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

This means, reality is independent of our thinking or our religion. And history is something that exists no matter what we think about it. The same counts for already happened events like terror acts. They are reality.

Thus Sebcrea's statement is true.

Yes, and we are fighting back again and again and againnandagiandnaagain...
(imagine small stamping angry crying kids on both sides)

This was already my question in the other thread:
Who was first? Chicken or egg? If we are really honest - we don´t know it really.

Do you think this is the right way?

Edit: sorry for this very german post, but I can´t translate that not really:


Ok, it comes out of Wikipedia but it fits to my minds.

fogman: I think we are misunderstanding each other.

I am quite sure you are right in this. Someone has to stop. And in the case of Israel I believe that they are strong enough to stop this war. The same counts for us. We have to be strong, to be able to defend us, but we dont need to bring war to other countries (Afghanistan, Israel, Vietnam). This is the wrong reaction. But the real reason behind these wars are economical ones.

But when we become absolute pacifistic people with no defense then someone will erase us from the map as the Chinese did with the Tibetians.

You´ve summed it up quite good.
Of course it´s a dilemma and of course we should defend our country.
I don´t say that we have to be pacifistic.
I simply agree with you, that we don´t need to bring war to other countries.

This was indeed a misunderstanding.

I understand all of your point,but to make it clear once more again,most of you seems to be generalize the effect of your 'creativity' that you put towards big religion on your country,but once again,we are different,we don't care what you agnosticism,atheism done to other religion,but for our case it's different case.

For every action is full of consequences,whether it's directly,now,future,past.even in other religion have those concept(karma,good & bad) all will comes to you,to you atheism & agnosticism just remember simple concept of law conservation of energy.

To you who still have the brainwashed by islamphobia,islam = terrorist,please make your homework for researching the real one,about bali bomb I & II,go to metrotvnews.com(one of the most reliable and respected indonesian news source) , and ask them for interview(metro files & metro reality) from an CIA asset(local indonesian in which he blurred his faces in darkness and scrambled voices,he claim himself as a CIA asset and has some proof!) that have been planted on those groups who is responsible for those action,and if you have time to visit indonesia,
go visit ITB in bandung(Bandung institute of Technology),ask them one of lecturer whom have been involved helping the local & national police,agency,there is a indication(radius of blast & explosion,the effects,the aftermath,the victim burn effect,the surrounding building aftermath effect,etc) that the group have using a mini-nuclear bomb,which even our (Indonesia) military doesn't even have small scratch a tinnier gram for these material,the heads of the groups even shock that effect of blast is more than their planned to explode which suppose to be way smaller. Yes CIA has following our asses since our 1st president soekarno.Maybe a or some of you is member & asset of those intelligence agency.


Until those kids stops playing fps and mmo which normally just sits in their home and scold at someone,guess what their brain have teached them to redicule everything that moves,and until someone give a nice real physically palm in their face.That's when they realize to use their freedom of speech wisely,isn't it the concep of freedom of speech?,the mature results is to give a solution from every stands point,but in progress these kids must goes into this process if they doesn't grow up.

@alpha12 What are you talking about ?

Do you know who invented the word islamophobia und why ? (now you start google ... and ...)

Does the word "empathy" mean something to you?
If you apply it here, you´ll recognize that this was just an unfortunate choice of a word.

But that doesn´t negate his arguments.
Your questions implies to me that you´re really wear some blinders.

Though I can separate islamic people from the terrorists perfectly well, I must apologize for not taking in account that the normal islamic people too are affected by the drawings of muhammad. At first I didn't realize these people would bother with the numbnuts drawing muhammads for a week. But then, it would also be a bad thing when half of Asia starts drawing swastika's everyhwere just to show the western world they can do whatever they want. Yeah, they can, but it shows how little respect they would have to the war as well, while the war did not affected them as much as in the west.

Anyway, so my earlier posts were mainly pointed at the extremists, not taking in account the normal Islamic society. This is where I have changed my mind about the event.

exactly.