Hm. But if God provides for me like that, why do we go to work? Why do we worry about politics, wars... if God will provide for us? Why do we grow food? And is not the ability to grow food closely linked to the "go green" idea? Preserving the soil today so it can be used tomorrow...
There's simply no way going green can be bad, if done right. It might, of course, as you say, increase your love for this planet. But there is nothing wrong with that. You're not to store your earthly treasures (i.e. money, possessions), but then again that is not at all what going green means. Loving, preserving, caring for the environment we love in is in no way sin. And I believe that the true nature of "going green" is the caring for each other, not the caring for earthly goods. It is the human race trying to preserve a planet for their children, because of love for their fellow humans.
Was Jesus alive today I'm sure there'd be quotes in the bible like "clean up after yourself" or "preserve the earth in a way so that following generations can also live at the high standard you're living at."

Slin, the story you're quoting is in this book: http://www.anderezeiten.de/bestellen/ind...ere-zeiten.html (a very nice book with loads of fun stories) though of course it could be that you heard it elsewhere.

The Shroud of Turin is fake, it was made in the 13th or 14th century:


Evolution: There are many vestigal organs. For example, there are birds that can't fly but still have wings. What would god give them wings for?
All flying insects have two pairs of wings. Flies seem to have only one. But they actually have two pairs of wings, but one of them is vestigal.
All species can be ordered in a tree of shared features. Why would god make it like this? Evolution exlains this, species in one branch share a common ancestor.
On islands far away from mainland there are no mammals except for bats, because they can fly. If god put all mammals on Earth, why didn't he put some on faraway islands?
The laryngeal nerve is a nerve that goes from the brain down to the chest, where is devides, and one of the branches goes up to the larynx. Why would make it make such a detour? Why didn't he make it devide already in the neck? Again, evolution explains it, we share a common ancestor with fishes, which lookes rather like fishes, which don't have a neck. When the neck grew, the nerve became longer, and the branching couldn't move because there veins in the way.
And what is the last time you drank something and choked on it? Did you never ask why god made your trachea next to your oesophagus, so this can happen? Couldn't he made it like gills? Again, evolution explains this, our lungs didn't evolve from gills, but rather from the swimming bladders of fishes.

You can't deny any of this evidence. And if you do, you should mistrust doctors who want to heal you based on this knowledge.

Big Bang: I already showed you the evidence, like the expansion of the universe and the micrtrowave background. These are facts you can't deny.



You already told me I'm going to hell because I'm an atheist.
So, you think all the evidence against christianity is made by Satan? Wow, if they really made you believe that, that makes you really immune against all kinds of evidence against you. But you only believe that Satan made that evidence because you already believe in christianity, which for you includes believing that all evidence against christianity is made by Satan, which means it must be true. Again, circular reasoning works because...



First of all, it was not ME, who posted that bible quote. You are so not listening properly (or reading actually), that you don't even know that jenGs posted that, not me.
Look at his comment:
"- I don't see this attitude either. You are like an islamic fundametalist, turn the words around to serve your agressive strategy here."
What he means is that your agressive way contradicts the bible (at least the new testament).



You are the only person I think is likely to really don't understand that "seen" is not meant litterally, like seeing your face...
Otherwise this comment is stupid anyway.


Ah I see. This would have been even funnier if you had started the "Where do atheists get their morals from?" thing, like people of your kind often do.
You are now saying that you are doing this, not because you feel it's the right thing, but only to get a reward. You make an impression like if you would know there is no god, you would become evil, as there is no other reason to be good than the reward you hope to get in heaven.

Not to ruin your argument here, but in essence individual people on earth are first and foremost just trying to survive, deal with life and be a part of modern society (ie. earn money so they can enjoy their personal and materialistic freedoms).

Most people really do not care about the planet for as long as it (=pollution as a whole) doesn't hurt them personally.

Humans can be (and in many cases will be) incredibly selfish.

It's the way it works for most, especially the lower their incomes are and the less true power individuals have. That's a generalization of course, but a pretty good one considering the environmental pollution in this world.

Genuine idealists motivated enough to really do something are a dying breed if you ask me, just look at how many financial bloodsuckers spawned from the whole 'green energy' hype. Not to mention the political puppets that even if they got the right kinds of ideas take forever to really accomplish change. They're all really more interested in your money in their pockets, than they are in actually changing the world.

How come alternative energy isn't just free and available for all? How come the better alternatives aren't promoted by local governments? How come not one government on this planet has banned automobiles that run on oil-based fuels to preserve nature? How come we get to pay a lot more for allegedly 'cleaner' fuel? Did you know that in many countries you actually pay an additional tax for solar panels on your house?

If you want true progress, then we should change our reliance on fossil fuels today and start driving in different cars tomorrow... Invest in truly durable energy. But no one is willing to really pay the prize.

Not to mention that change won't even occur when only a handful of people really act up to do something (and trust me then I am not talking about Greenpeace trying to save whales. As that's really pointless and a stupid waste of time. There are more important fish to catch, why not go after them instead?). It needs to come from the top, but in my mind just paying money as a debt to nature isn't the answer to this. Things need to be done.

At the same time I can't help but hold a somewhat fatalistic view that individual change is futile considering the scale of the problem. For as far as it's a true problem.



First, that would never ever end up in the bible. Religions are more concerned with the after life they can blind their followers with than true life here and now. It's also why it doesn't say that we should NOT wage war, but instead almost seems to promote it together with hands full of other dirt.

Also, perhaps financial or social high standards in some cases yes, but the world as a whole already is a huge mess.

Religious wars, massive pollution, political conflicts that go nowhere and then I haven't even started on murders and other lesser scale crimes. (I'm not talking about some kind of Armageddon-type climax of evil on earth here, just calling things the way they are and have always been.)

I'm not sure I'd wish my great-grandchildren all that actually, even if it would mean they'd have exactly the same chances in life as I've got. I'd say it would essentially mean not changing the world at all, which I'd say is a bad thing.

Let's just hope Joquan never rises to any political/educational power. His views are seriously twisted. It is all fine and dandy having faith in God, but to think that helping restore the planet is a sin is just crazy.

Aren't Christians supposed to help each other? This urge to do nothing to help make the earth a cleaner place makes me think you are just using religion to mask an evil/spiteful interior.

As for the big bang the evidence is there, but probably not why/how it happened. That's where I think the link between sceience and religion is. Maybe there is a higher power that created the big bang, but i think that is it. I don't think this 'being' is an active part of our lives. It let evolution take over.

I thought the LHC was supposed to answer these questions?

Eventually, I think more and more people will accept evolution as fact because the evidence is overwhelming already. We learn more and more each century and hopefully there will be a time when evolution is no longer called a theory.

Lets just ban him.
Anyone not in favour of the motion?

PS: Yes, I read the whole thread.

"We learn more and more each century and hopefully there will be a time when evolution is no longer called a theory."

There is a huge different between a "theory" in common language and a scientific theory. A theory like you call it, would in science be called a hypothesis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
The "theory" of evolution is no more doubted than the "theory" of gravity.

This post has been hidden.

I love that idea, I really do.
The problem is freedom of speach, religion and whatever. As long as he doesn´t really attack us, it would be wrong to ban him, even though it may is gods wish to have him banned for his stupidity.
I am just not able to understand his ignorant and stupid way of thinking.

But he is hurting me... physically. Every post is like another kick to the head.

"Penguins use them for swimming. Ostriches use them to propel themselves faster, etc."
Sure some birds "found" other ways to use their wings but why give pinguins wings instead of fins?

"That is man's way of organizing things."
No, it's not. You totally missed my point. You won't find any non-bird with feathers. That's a fact. There is no mammal that has feathers, so why did god give feathers only to birds, which also share the fact that they have beaks, wings and legs, etc.
Bats can fly, but they have no feathers, becaus ethey are mammals. It would have been no problem for god to give them feathers, but they don't have feathers, because they share no common ancester with birds that already carries the genes for feathers.

"Because there needs to be balance."
Did you even read what I said??
There are mammals all over the world. Why wouldn't god put some mammals on some faraway islands? There surely are mammals on islands like Britain, which is near to the European mainland and was once even a part of it. It doesn't hurt its balance.

"Once again, because God had a plan for us. As of now, not everything about us is known."
God damnit, you are totally ignoring my point again!! It would not make any sense to make that detour, if we were designed. But evolution explains this elegantly! Doesn't that make you worry your believes are wrong??

"The reason we choke on liquids, and we cannot breathe underwater is because we were not meant to."
This time you didn't even care remotely about what I said!! I DIDN'T ASK WHY GOD MAKE US CHOKE ON LIQUIDS!!!! THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DUMB!!! I asked, why is the trachea is next to the oesophagus, making choking necessary so often! Fishes have gills, which aren't near their oesophagus, which means they aren't in danger of choking while eating! If we are designed, it makes no sense that the trachea is next to the oesophagus, but if we are made by evolution it does make sense!


"Who says that all doctors heal you according to this knowledge?"
Well, if a doctor didn't heal me according to the facts of anatomy/biology, I would go to an other doctor. You can happily going to a doctors who still think bloodletting is helpful. Oh, no wait, you don't go to doctors, you pray to you god to heal you e.g. if you get cancer.


"I didn't say that Satan personally comes up with fake evidence. He influences his followers."
I didn't say that you said that! You ignored my point again! MY POINT WAS THAT YOU ARE USING CIRCULAR REASONING!


"Aggression does not mean that I am contradicting any part of the Bible. It says that Jesus will come back, riding on a white horse, in royal clothes, striking down his opposition."
Seriously, you sounds like a troll. I mean dude...


Like I said, you aren't good for the sake of being good. And it worries me that you put a non-existing being to a higher priority than existing people.



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And there is an other evidence for evolution I forgot to mention:
The retina of the human eye (which you creationists always name as perfect and irreducable complex) is backwards! The nerves that lead the information from the eyes to the brain are ABOVE the seeing cells! And as they have to get out of the eye, there is a hole in the retina where they get out, the blind spot.