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How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. #383026
09/15/11 09:48
09/15/11 09:48
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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miez Offline OP
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miez  Offline OP
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After playing Dead Space I want to know which ways exist, to destroy objects and dismember creatures.
And no, I donīt want to make Dead Space...
I know some ways, but I donīt understand the technical side of some of them.

Quake II made it with simple animation\replacement of the Model, so that the injuries were predefined.
Disadvantage: you shoot the legs and the head of the enforcer disappears... strange. So I donīt want to use this for my project.

Turok 2 had one centerentity with attached limbs, with the limbs having own hitboxes.
If the limb was hit, it was removed and the centerentity reacted to it.
This was not bad, but the disadvantage was, that it was
clearly visible, that the Models were attached.
They had ugly seams. With machines there is no problem, because they are assembled,
but for living creatures this is not, what I want to achieve.

Then Dead Space has seamless models with fixed points, where they can be dismembered.
The same thing for Mortal Kombat 2011. There is absolutly no visible hint, that there is anything removeable...
Something similar I would like to use, even if that is still not perfect.
But I have no clue, how this has been done.
This seamless-thing is, what is most important to me, to have the models look consistent.

Then I read about a Metal Gear game, I dont know the title,
where a guy with a sword is (or will be) the main protagonist, and they wrote,
that it is possible in the game, to cut ANYTHING that is destroyable in the world DYNAMICALLY.
The way he slashes is the exact way the blade cuts.
I imagine it like the slice plane in the WED editor for cutting blocks.
If it is true, how could this be achieved?
I think there is a huge lot of calculating going on there...
That would be my favorite (of course) but I donīt think, that could be realistic to be achieved by me.

Anyone knows how that all works?
Do you know any other additional ways used?

Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: miez] #383031
09/15/11 11:06
09/15/11 11:06
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
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lostclimate  Offline
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have a model that has several versions that get swapped out based on what part of the model is hit. it will take up a lot of space if you have vertex anims, but will look fairly reallistic without a large amount of dynamic calculation.

Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: lostclimate] #383033
09/15/11 11:33
09/15/11 11:33
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
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Error014  Offline
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Maybe you'll find this interesting.

Fair warning: There's some imagery in there that may not be for everyone. Depending on your love for blood and gore.


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: Error014] #383035
09/15/11 11:46
09/15/11 11:46
Joined: Oct 2006
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Shadow969 Offline
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Shadow969  Offline
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neat paper, thanks Error!

Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: lostclimate] #383037
09/15/11 11:51
09/15/11 11:51
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,210
Bavaria, Germany
Kartoffel Offline
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Kartoffel  Offline
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Posts: 2,210
Bavaria, Germany
I think FULLY dynamic dismembering (that you can cut off 'things' at any position) isn't possible with 3DGS. But I've got two ideas. I don't know
if it works but you can try it:

1: You can use different skins together with the OVERLAY-flag (which makes every black (0,0,0) pixel transparent). 'just' change the
skin to another, where everything which shouldn't be visible is black.

2: The same method - but using a shader and a mask instead of different skins. A bit complicated if you don't know much about shaders, but it would be possible to make any combination of areas invisible with only using 2 skins (it would be also possible with one).


POTATO-MAN saves the day! - Random
Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: Kartoffel] #383038
09/15/11 12:33
09/15/11 12:33
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 135
Myrkling Offline
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Myrkling  Offline
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You could also use vmask to hide certain parts of a model.

Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: Kartoffel] #383122
09/16/11 02:31
09/16/11 02:31
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Posts: 482
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bart_the_13th Offline
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bart_the_13th  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kartoffel
I think FULLY dynamic dismembering (that you can cut off 'things' at any position) isn't possible with 3DGS.


I think it's still possible, I know how to put holes in a body via shader, basically using your 2nd way(I've done this sometime ago) but I can't figure how to cap the hole(until I read Error's post). From what I read, valve is using inverted sphere to cap the holes and using normal testing on the main model to decide which part of the sphere's model that should be shown(smart move).

Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: bart_the_13th] #383129
09/16/11 08:04
09/16/11 08:04
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
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lostclimate  Offline
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it is, it just takes a lot of fancy math and vertex movement. a lot of work, enough where if i was lonewolfing it or working on a small team, i wouldnt want to try it, there is more important things that will take long enough as is. i'd just have a few varied ways of letting him be dismemebered and leave it at that.

id also guess if you were using a 3rd party physics engine like havok it might be doable through that in some ways, but that kinda integration would also be kinda tough to do as well.


Last edited by lostclimate; 09/16/11 08:05.
Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: lostclimate] #383142
09/16/11 10:34
09/16/11 10:34
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,210
Bavaria, Germany
Kartoffel Offline
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Kartoffel  Offline
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Posts: 2,210
Bavaria, Germany
Well... yes, saying that it isn't possible with 3DGS isn't right. Everything is possible in 3DGS.

But it's often a lot of work and everyone who wants to make something really complicated should think about if it is really worth it.


POTATO-MAN saves the day! - Random
Re: How to? Dismemberment with Seamless Models. [Re: Kartoffel] #383222
09/17/11 14:06
09/17/11 14:06
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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miez Offline OP
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miez  Offline OP
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Good.... Reading Valves (very intersting) stuff and some of the posts, I seem to have to restrict myself drastically in damagemodels.
In first place, it was the general technical side of "how did they do that", what had interested me.
And it gave very interesting insights.
And once again it proves, that the simple looking, rather unspectacular effects are the most hardest to achieve.

Now to my desingn-decision (I have not started a project):
Dismemberment\destruction would not be essential or important part of the game.
This would be more or less just eyecandy.
There seem just two possible ways, that I could implement.
But which one should I choose?
This is important, so that I know how to build up my models from the start up.

1. The Turok 2 Way. Attached Limbs on center-entity.
or
2. Create all the different damaged variants of the model and
interchange them based on the areas hit.

I want to use Bones-animation and Ent_Decal. But I suppose that ent_decal will not work with solution #2.
Because I think, when I change the model, the applieed decals disappears together with the exchanged model.

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