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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: 2TFruT]
#34598
10/15/04 09:18
10/15/04 09:18
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
Red Ocktober
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Developer
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815
NY USA
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Quote:
If doom 3 looked like crap, it would be an extreamily bad, below average first person shooter with nothing that sets it apart from all the others out there on the market.
... but it doesn't look like crap,
and so the whole big hoopla about shaders this, and shaders that...
and that's what this thread is about...
so can we just try not to turn it into another 'gameplay vs eye candy' foodfight, and just take it for what it is...
... a look at how even one of the easiest tools is handling the new order, while 3dgs is still struggling to get it's shader identity clearly defined.
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: uman]
#34601
10/15/04 11:44
10/15/04 11:44
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 133
3DGP
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Posts: 133
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it dont matter what engine we use be it doom 3 crytek or source no one here is ever gonna match doom 3 or any other aaa game we just dont have the people power or the money to do it game engine aside indie must thing smaller abd make it fun thats the best bet now onto tech i had a run aroun thread abit ago about lightin in GS and shaders first off gs is so far off from how current tech its scary take note i posted this torque light pack pic and a gs user responded with Quote:
My models are highlighted by dynamic lights..not the sun, though I use it in certain dramatic lighting situations and would so no matter what engine I used.
lets clear this up abit first of all you only have 7 dynamic lights + sun so you are sunk right there on top of that your static meshs wont cast a shadow map you have 2 choice 1: use standard dynamic 2: use stencil your done already
lets go over it i want to make a complex railin system that will cast a shadow based on over head lights lets say this rail system is much to complex for bsp so we will use model at this point with gs your stuck with stencil or no shadow at all the other alternative is to build a rail system that sort of matches the model out of bsp then flag it too none so it will cast a shadow whack design at best paying for next version of gs finaces there r&d plain and simple
3dgs engine will always be king and hold crown of ease of use but it will always be way behind and limited
it dont work both ways
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: Orange Brat]
#34603
10/15/04 12:16
10/15/04 12:16
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
Red Ocktober
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Posts: 815
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Quote:
This 8 light limit has nothing to do with 3DGS and everything to do with DirectX.
...actually, i think the limitation is with the video card hardware, and not DirectX.
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: Orange Brat]
#34604
10/15/04 12:25
10/15/04 12:25
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 133
3DGP
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Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 133
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Quote:
No you're not. I have about 35 dynamic lights(70 when you count the non-color shadow influencers) in one level. There are few limitations that can't be overcome with a little forethought. This 8 light limit has nothing to do with 3DGS and everything to do with DirectX.
i have unlimited dynamic light and shadow mapping for model
you have neither yes an issue with directx 8-9 mabey
but a 1999 engine with a creative coder with access to source over came it
why cant conitec
you will never win this argument
because the engine i speak of does things you just cant do
you dont have cross platform your limited on dynamic light you have not model shadow map your terrain is cr*p
your network non existent and so on and so on
quit tryin to compare a hoppy engine with an industry strength tool
coded by people who shiped aaa games
you cant win this
once again i will say this engine hold crown ease of use
but thats it
but this wont last long
see my other post i made about inside info
hang around gg chat
lots of great info comes across there about whats up and coming
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: TheExpert]
#34607
10/16/04 10:28
10/16/04 10:28
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 172 UK
uman
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You are correct about the Torque Frame rates - if you try the Shader engine demo as it is currently you will find a big drop in frame rates compared to the Standard engine which in itself has questionable frame rates.
I can say from direct experience that I have a City level created in GS with hundreds of MDL entities one of which is a whole city block of 30 buildings. The models are additional to all the buildings created as level blocks. All of the MDL entities have little effect on the level frame rate which varies from a consistent 40 - 75fps in a level where there is a long line of sight along streets.
I have just tested the said single City model of 30 buildings as DTS model in an empty Torque level which when looking away from the model gives a fPS reading of around 160fps - if I turn around and look at the city model the FPS drops to 6fps - yes thats six frames per second.
Theres a lot of debate about these different engines around various forums and really reading the official hype, engine specs, forum debates, claims and counter claims and alike is really a waste of time - if you want to know which ones are best at what - more importantly which ones are even capable of making a "complete" game of any standing - then you will have to test out something thats been made with them thats extensive showing the capabilities of the various engines under stress. The trouble is you will be hard pressed to find any such thing made by any of them.
Most of the indie engines out there and some others which are referred to as more advanced engines which indeed they may be promote themselves as such with a simple one incomplete level - hardly a demonstartion of an engines capability or power. Theres nothing there to demonstarte such.
The Torque engine for instance (just using the example not picking on it) as you know has a demo FPShooter which despite its excellent terrain, water, sky combo has very little else - try filling it with some complex geometry and 30 different actors running around and see what happens.
In terms of generating anything like a quality modern commercial title content none of them currently have anything that I am aware of that can show us they can achieve that. There are a few exceptions to this I am sure but the general claim of many indie engines (and each do it) to be the best and easiest to make a game with requiring little programming is really misleading. If it were so there would be many more games made with them as there are combined a great deal of users worldwide but try as you may its going to be hard to find many completed games made by them or even playable demos of any stature. Yes admittedly you can make a game - "of sorts" with any of them if you want to keep it simple and primitive, but not many do. We are spoilt by modern commercial titles and want to aspire to achieve more and rightly so.
In truth all of them for one reason or another are either lacking the features needed or for differing reasons are extremely difficult for indie developers to be productive with. Whether it be difficulties with collision, AI, terrain or the bugs and more that some of them have - you are likely to spend a lot more time working out how to achieve what you want to do instead of actually doing it. By the time you get your game made if ever it will be outdated and you wont be happy with that.
GS at least as far as I have been able to ascertain in testing most of the engines discussed here without doubt is the fastest in production time and frames rates which are its strengths but it does have other poorly supported features and the continuing ongoing forward development of the engine is holding back small developers in my opinion while they await a stable production environment. At least it is is my case.
Using backwards compatibility to previous versions one could call upon a great deal of others experience and knowledge gained over a long period of time and a vast array of script examples and tutorials to help in your gamemaking production, most of what you would need or need to learn could be found somewhere here - with the move along the road to the new engine that is likey to be all lost as much of that content is to become obsolete - unless you can be the first to solve the new problems, create the new scripts, content, tutorials etc and lead the way then you may have to wait a long, long time before as a GS user you will be in such an enviable position again.
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