ya know... it's so refreshing to have some people here who can look at things objectively, and not take on the fanboy attitudes that so many others feel they must adopt simply because they decided to license one development tool as opposed to another...

it's refreshing to read the posts of people who do not adhere to the urban legends, rumors, propaganda, and sheer lunacy floating around...


but with every silver lining there always seems to follow the dark clouds of ignorance, fanboyism, and just plain dooo daaa uninformed statements...

... take for instance, The Expert, in his post directly above...

1-

Quote:

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and with 3DGS you don't have to modify code to do your game
you can create your personnal scripts (very easy and powerfull langage !)

---

what's to stop someone from doing the same thing in Torque... absolutely nothing, as a matter of fact, you never need to touch the core code to make any sort of game... this statement is wrong, another urban legend based on lack of information about Torque.


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Quote:

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there were great slowdown of their Torque shader demo on my
2.5Ghz,Radeon 9800Xt at 1024*768
and i run Doom3 with all details at 10424 ;

---

... huuuullo, the Torque Shader Demo is pre release code... they make that fact very plain, all over the place, to prospective developers... it is called an early adopters release... and the GG people make it verrrrrrrrry clear to anyone who has eyes, and who is willing to read what is printed right in front of their faces... does it really surprise you that there may be debugging and unoptimized code running in the demo...

it seems like your attitude is more that of a user than a developer... comparing debugging and beta stuff with a code complete, gold release... sorry dude, another misinformed point you fail to validate.


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Quote:

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No Torque is not as powerfull as you think !

---

well, then i guess the entire community of game developers must be wrong and must submit to your opinion then... because just a few people out there, who surely must know a lot more than you do, seem to think that Torque's networking code is the best there is anywhere... but naahhhh, lets ignore their factual deductions in favor of your uninformed opinions...

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Quote:

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And i don't want to try to understand Torque during 6 months to do something
and loose all my time programming the engine instead of creating a game !

---

then just buy the book 3D Game Programming All In One by Ken Finney... and read it... you'll be making better games than you ever did in a week... as a matter of fact, get the book anyway... it'll help ya make better games with A6 as well... seeing as there is no A6 book out yet.

and if you think that you are gonna get up to speed coding c script in a6 in any short span of time, well... you are deluding yourself even more. there is quite a bit that the a6 scripting languages has to offer that you are gonna have to search for, cause... like i said earlier, it aint in any book yet.




now lets look at uman's urban legends from the post above...

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Quote:

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You are correct about the Torque Frame rates - if you try the Shader engine demo as it is currently you will find a big drop in frame rates compared to the Standard engine which in itself has questionable frame rates.

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read a few lines up what i told Expert about beta code vs release code... if ya had stopped for a muiute and thought about what you were saying, you would have realized the total foolishness of it... not trying to be mean or anything, just trying to open your eyes to the world of fact vs fiction... the world of objective and logical fact finding as opposed to listening to the voices in your head...

hey, we all have a bias towards and against certain things... the trick is to learn to recognize when something that you wanna believe is factual, as opposed to, when something you wanna believe is not based on fact... or any extrapolation thereof.



i'm not gonna quote any more of your stuff because it would be a waste of time u... there is just so much uninformed stuff you put up, that i would be here all day trying to help you see the straight and factual... and that really aint my mission in life... all i can do is try to offer up some facts... and an unbiased viewpoint...

hundreds of mdl entities... surely, even you can see the folley in this sorta scene construction... and i have been on Torque game boards with more than 30 different players, with 'complex geometry' as you put it... and, ON A DIALUP connection... all with smooth, 30-50 fps average performance.

now, you try that with the same price comparable version of a6... oh, i forgot... you can't. the price comparable version of a6 to Torque only allows up to 4 players in a multiplayer session... unless you wanna license someone elses net code, or write your own... and the next level up will cost you what you can buy 5 licenses for Torque, and still have enough change left over to get a lighting pack, the book, and a dinner at a fine NY restaraunt...

sorry u, you've come up with another myth from never never land...



hey, i've licensed both Torque and 3DGS... i use both... i have no flg to fly... i feel 3dgs has its good points, as does Torque... or i wouldn't be wasting my time with either...

... but to see the stuff written by some of these flag waving a6 fanatics against what is arueably one of the best game development bargains out there... well, in my opinion they do nothing to help the 3dgs community...

... as a matter of fact, they are doin just the opposite.

if a6 fits the bill for a particular project, then i'll use it... if not, i'll use something else... but i have no need to delude myself into believing any of the urban legends i've seen in the last two posts.



--Mike

Well !

Ok Torque is not bad : but less easy than 3DGS and you won't create a little
prototype game as fast !

well The Torque Shader Demo is slow : and i bet it will not change a lot
when it's done :i wait for a next demo !

3DGS is slow with Blocks BSP :
but we can use a trick :
use models with LOD instead and with a multitexture shader :
standar texture + lightpmap exported from Render TO Texture in 3DSMAX for example !

And like i said : there's not a lot of game developped and as cool as with 3DGS !

When i say torque is outdated :
they've just brought the Lighting pack :
Incredible : Toruqe didn't have real lightning : LET ME LAUGHT !
And for light pack you may pay 100$

with 3DGS: real lightning is real time light and is included like all other
engines !!

INCREDIBLE : you must pay more with TOrque to have real time lightning !!
real time light should be included in the base package :
THAT's A BIG SHAME and i think they think we are complete idiots to
buy a game engine and buy also real time lightinig (that should be included) !

I know that Torque engine code are outdated : and people are trying to rewrite the code at garage games !
actually IS NOT BAD OR VERY FAR FROM 3DGS and we can make incredible terrains really fast :
but their editors are not very simple also !
and 3DGS has no terrain editor at all !!

I really love 3DGS (i have the commercial and it's top) ,
but i'm not fanatic :
for exmaple to have :
-mirros
-render to texture
-vehicle engine (in dev)
you must pay the pro :That's a shame !
these thing should be in the commercial !

go look at Truevision3D engine and their incoming beta :
you'll have all mirros,render to text,vehicle engine for free to do
non commercial games !
But TrueVision 3D have no LEVEL Editor : a big Bad point !

Torque and 3DGS have their own ,and with a level editor can start creating is game 5 minutes (no needs to spend months writing your world editor) !

Well you see ,i'm not fanatic ,i know lot of 3D engines and for me
3DGS is the most easy and bring you results faster than any other !

Red Ocktober,

Everyone at GS and Torque is just waiting for you to support anything you say with a practical demonstartion in support of your theories. I mean one you have created personally. We await the download of any game you personally complete with complex geometery and 30 different actors running around - any game at all - lets see it then. Your creation not someone elses, made with any indie engine you care to utilise. Show us all how to do it. If you can you wont have time to spend here.....you'll be too busy counting your money and you'll deserve it.

Till then I'm outta here.......so much nonsense.....just a lotta talk and hot air.........you ought to be a politician........I got better things to waste my time on. bye

This is not a serious thread - I suggest everyone ignore it.

http://www.umedia.co.uk/city_heights2.jpg

... that's it!!!

... just that one shot!!??


ohhh well, i did ask for just anything, didn't i...


ok, without sounding too judgemental or anything, i think i now am starting to understand why you posted the things you did...


there's nothing in that shot that couldn't have been done in any of the dev tools that we've touched upon in this thread...

and while it's a good start, there are some things that you might consider looking into... (like those trees and light poles not having any shadows while the structures near em do for one)...

plus, the idea you had of having hundreds of these buildings in a single level... well, me thinks you should be look at thata lil more too... (like some way of splitting the level, seeing as the view is by default gonna be limited to a few immediate buildings in most cases anyway)...

and thinking that using that as a point of issue to prove that one engine is better than another is pure...

well, lets just say it doesn't really prove anything... except maybe that the person trying to do it hasn't really thought out their situation, or their options fully.


but hey, this is the wrong place to go into all of that, and you didn't ask for a critique now, did you...


also, to be completely fair, it wouldn't be sporting of me not to give you something to criticize in return...

what do you (and all those people you said were waitin') wanna see... since i'm making a sub sim, it'll most likely be limited to subs... here are a few screenshots that i have lying around the web...


subs in 3drad



subs in Torque



subs in BlitzBasic



subs in Dark Basic


subs (testing new water code) in 3dgs A6



... so, ya see... i've done just a lil in a few of these game 'engines'.


now, can we get back on topic... i mean, this after all is supposed to be a shader thread... in spite of the fact that from it's incept it was very loosely related.

if you still wanna debate this start a new thread over in general discussions or somewhere...


--Mike

OK i will stop debate after two words :

I've nothing to post :
i just can say i've worked on tools for different projects :
visibilty and portals editor,collision editor, object model attach editor ....
,and now i'm creating a
zelda style RPG with 3DGS :for now i'm modeling,texturing,animating :

why not programming ?

Because the models and level quality ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING :
MOST IMPORTANT THAN THE 3D ENGINE !

the 3D Engine must also be good but it is 2nd place !

wait some weeks to see screens !!
(i have to create a new site also that wil host the screens!)

i was programmer :
Dark basic,DBPro,Blitz3D,Crystal Space,some Direct3D , TV3D,3DGS

now that's some one year i do very little programming and i'm turning to modeling and texturing skills instead and i will program when the 3D things of my game will be done !
i prefer to do a one person game (me) after that perhaps join a team !

OK Torque has real time lightning , but hey it has some things to
bring :
with 3DGSA6 :you already have shaders(bump specular etc..) and stencil shadows !

And don't contest that scripting with 3DGS is very very fast if you look at the new
manuals !
Torque is very far from that simplicity and more complicated for all !

But , I don't see lot fo games made with Torque and i repeat is not as ease of
use as 3DGS !
I dont know:
show me some games made with torque not the 4 or 5 little games
like orbz in their site !

3DGS has more than 1 mmorpg developped actually !
and a lot of other games with demos !

Torque hasn't a lot , because less easy etc ...
i don't care about network power of torque : i'm making a local game like
Zelda !

Well i stop here : if you want we will discuss in the very long torque topic
of 3DGS !

Hey i'm not against torque : that' just i'm not convinced at all about this engine !
that's why i use 3DGS !
Ciao !

Just a last thig :

i'm not a beginner with Cscript :
i used it for a long time and i have learned alot from AUM magazines
and others !
and when i learned CScript with 3DGS it has been
very very quick for me to have a character walking in a level with
handling of the camera !

Torque ; i've never developped with it because :
Lot of people has said complains about it's complexity !
i'v elooked at it's script and it seems more complicated than 3DGS !

3DGS has not a book : but not necessary beacause :
3DGS is so simple that the manual is all you need !
you can script quickly your own walking character with manuals tutorials !

Torque has a book because is a lot more complex and they have found
complaints of people that found it too complex to do a simple thing !
not bad syntax as DBPRo but not very clear !

But i'm not fanatic and not a beginner in 3D programing :

But hey i've tested the 3DGS new demo vehicle and it's very far
from Torque vehicle demo :
on my radeon 9800 frame rate is slow downs all the time and vehicle
physics not very good like it would be updated every 2 or 3 frames !
try running backward and you'll see that !

Yes Torque is very superior in some points :
vehicle engine of torque runs very very smoothly
no slowdown like 3DGS Physics car demo !
and their demo is 100 more time beautifull , fast ans smooth !

That's stange your last submarine game is made with 3DGS and shaders for
water !!
You leave Torque : héhéhé !!

For me , i keep 3DGS for my RPG !

Im running at 35-45 fps in the TSE demo 1280x1024*32 high quality (I added a few things but nothing to slow it down much more)
2.4ghz /512meg ddr
geforcefx 5900
winXP pro

so while its not the speediest creature on the planet...it not bad for beta code.

I think Mikes point is, Just becuase you dont like it , doesnt mean its not good.

It really comes down to experience with the Engine itself.

Just becuase I couldnt get something to work in GS, doesnt mean you cant.

Its a tool and use it as such, best tool for the Job at hand.

If you can Finish a Game in any engine...then Kudo's to you.

@TheExpert

its not that torques script is that much harder,,,
there just never really was enough documentation aimed at learning it in the first place.
theres alot more now...but still its not all that newbie freindly.
(its explains it,but doesnt show it used in a practicle way)
So the Book was certainly welcome.

Zmatrix