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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: uman]
#34608
10/17/04 01:45
10/17/04 01:45
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
Red Ocktober
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ya know... it's so refreshing to have some people here who can look at things objectively, and not take on the fanboy attitudes that so many others feel they must adopt simply because they decided to license one development tool as opposed to another...
it's refreshing to read the posts of people who do not adhere to the urban legends, rumors, propaganda, and sheer lunacy floating around...
but with every silver lining there always seems to follow the dark clouds of ignorance, fanboyism, and just plain dooo daaa uninformed statements...
... take for instance, The Expert, in his post directly above...
1- Quote:
and with 3DGS you don't have to modify code to do your game
you can create your personnal scripts (very easy and powerfull langage !)
what's to stop someone from doing the same thing in Torque... absolutely nothing, as a matter of fact, you never need to touch the core code to make any sort of game... this statement is wrong, another urban legend based on lack of information about Torque.
2-Quote:
there were great slowdown of their Torque shader demo on my
2.5Ghz,Radeon 9800Xt at 1024*768
and i run Doom3 with all details at 10424 ;
... huuuullo, the Torque Shader Demo is pre release code... they make that fact very plain, all over the place, to prospective developers... it is called an early adopters release... and the GG people make it verrrrrrrrry clear to anyone who has eyes, and who is willing to read what is printed right in front of their faces... does it really surprise you that there may be debugging and unoptimized code running in the demo...
it seems like your attitude is more that of a user than a developer... comparing debugging and beta stuff with a code complete, gold release... sorry dude, another misinformed point you fail to validate.
3-Quote:
No Torque is not as powerfull as you think !
well, then i guess the entire community of game developers must be wrong and must submit to your opinion then... because just a few people out there, who surely must know a lot more than you do, seem to think that Torque's networking code is the best there is anywhere... but naahhhh, lets ignore their factual deductions in favor of your uninformed opinions...
4- Quote:
And i don't want to try to understand Torque during 6 months to do something
and loose all my time programming the engine instead of creating a game !
then just buy the book 3D Game Programming All In One by Ken Finney... and read it... you'll be making better games than you ever did in a week... as a matter of fact, get the book anyway... it'll help ya make better games with A6 as well... seeing as there is no A6 book out yet.
and if you think that you are gonna get up to speed coding c script in a6 in any short span of time, well... you are deluding yourself even more. there is quite a bit that the a6 scripting languages has to offer that you are gonna have to search for, cause... like i said earlier, it aint in any book yet.
now lets look at uman's urban legends from the post above...
1-Quote:
You are correct about the Torque Frame rates - if you try the Shader engine demo as it is currently you will find a big drop in frame rates compared to the Standard engine which in itself has questionable frame rates.
read a few lines up what i told Expert about beta code vs release code... if ya had stopped for a muiute and thought about what you were saying, you would have realized the total foolishness of it... not trying to be mean or anything, just trying to open your eyes to the world of fact vs fiction... the world of objective and logical fact finding as opposed to listening to the voices in your head...
hey, we all have a bias towards and against certain things... the trick is to learn to recognize when something that you wanna believe is factual, as opposed to, when something you wanna believe is not based on fact... or any extrapolation thereof.
i'm not gonna quote any more of your stuff because it would be a waste of time u... there is just so much uninformed stuff you put up, that i would be here all day trying to help you see the straight and factual... and that really aint my mission in life... all i can do is try to offer up some facts... and an unbiased viewpoint...
hundreds of mdl entities... surely, even you can see the folley in this sorta scene construction... and i have been on Torque game boards with more than 30 different players, with 'complex geometry' as you put it... and, ON A DIALUP connection... all with smooth, 30-50 fps average performance.
now, you try that with the same price comparable version of a6... oh, i forgot... you can't. the price comparable version of a6 to Torque only allows up to 4 players in a multiplayer session... unless you wanna license someone elses net code, or write your own... and the next level up will cost you what you can buy 5 licenses for Torque, and still have enough change left over to get a lighting pack, the book, and a dinner at a fine NY restaraunt...
sorry u, you've come up with another myth from never never land...
hey, i've licensed both Torque and 3DGS... i use both... i have no flg to fly... i feel 3dgs has its good points, as does Torque... or i wouldn't be wasting my time with either...
... but to see the stuff written by some of these flag waving a6 fanatics against what is arueably one of the best game development bargains out there... well, in my opinion they do nothing to help the 3dgs community...
... as a matter of fact, they are doin just the opposite.
if a6 fits the bill for a particular project, then i'll use it... if not, i'll use something else... but i have no need to delude myself into believing any of the urban legends i've seen in the last two posts.
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: TheExpert]
#34610
10/17/04 06:35
10/17/04 06:35
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
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Quote:
go look at Truevision3D engine and their incoming beta :
i've already looked at and coded with Truevision... verrry very nice, but as you start to look deeper, there's a lot you're gonna find... as you already pointed out with the lack of a level or terrain editor...
...by the way, where is the terrain editor in a6???????
you see... i'm an informed consumer and complainer... unlike you... read on and learn...
Quote:
Ok Torque is not bad : but less easy than 3DGS and you won't create a little
prototype game as fast !
you mean that you won't be able to create a lil protoype as fast... don't project your limitations and imaginative projections on anyone else but yourself...
Quote:
Incredible : Toruqe didn't have real lightning : LET ME LAUGHT !
And for light pack you may pay 100$
the lighting pack cost a lot less than $100... almost half... and even with that option, the torque engine still cost less than a license for a6 commercial...
come on now... you can't actually be believin' any of the stuff you are saying... hahahahaa... tell me, where'd ya come up with that $100 urban legend... did ya just make it up, or did a lil birdie whisper it in your ear????
did that lil birdie also tell you about Torque not having any real time lighting... hahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!! LOL before ya start takin the words of lil birdies, why don't ya run the Torque demo (it doesn't come with the lighting pack), and fire off a arrow near a wall, or inside a building... do ya see the real time lighting...
of course you don't...
move the lil birdies wings from over your eyes and look son...
seeeeeeeee, no lighting pack... and there is real time lighting... another myth evaporated...
Quote:
I know that Torque engine code are outdated : and people are trying to rewrite the code at garage games !
you know that the Torque code is outdated... how do you now this... and what do you mean by outdated... no, don't answer that, it was a rhetorical question...
the point being that that so called outdated code can make some pretty decent looking interior and expansive outdoor scenery... scenes that are hard to match with a6... although to be honest, i've seen some nice stuff in both...
point 2 being that, with Torque users can update the engine code, like the GG dev team has successfully been doing... i don't know how you can call it outdated... the latest codebase has just recently been released... but you didn't know that... the lil birdie forgot to mention that to ya...
besides... lets see you update the a6 code... (the core code, not by adding functionality via a dll)...
hahahahahahahaaa.... you can't now... can ya...
Quote:
I really love 3DGS (i have the commercial and it's top) ,
but i'm not fanatic :
you're not a fanatic, huh... welllll, i dunno... you come up with all these unsupported claims and you accept em as fact...
... sounds pretty fanatical to me.
hey, but each to his own i say... as for me, lets just say i just prefer to deal with fact as oposed to urban mythology.
i like using a6 too...
but you don't see me making any of these unsubstantiated and absolutely false statements...
... and more importantly, you don't see me trying to delude myself into believing that any of it is true
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: uman]
#34612
10/17/04 08:37
10/17/04 08:37
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
Red Ocktober
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Quote:
Everyone at GS and Torque is just waiting for you to support anything you say with a practical demonstartion in support of your theories. I mean one you have created personally.
... everyone!!!???
... everyone like who???
... you said everyone, can ya even just name a few people off the top of your head of these people at both of these forums who you say are waiting...
are ya startin' to see what i mean... you're comin up with more stuff straight from you own imagination... there is noone waiting for anything... only in your mind do they exist... just like the stuff that you said about the Torque engine...
you have no real facts to present about the topic at hand, so you try to turn it into something personal...
... typical.
well i refuse to engage in this sorta childishness... whether or not i start a game, or finish a game in A6 or Torque is totally irrelevant to the points that you have falsely made, and that i have successfully disputed and corrected...
this is not about me... it's about fact vs fiction... about truth vs imagination... about 3d game development...
so don't even try to center this discussion on me... it's more about YOU!!!
or more correctly put, it's about the misinformation you try to put up as fact...
as far as me... i work with both engines...
look around this (Shaders) forum for the shots i've posted from some code with a6...
i've also done work with Dark Basic Pro, 3DRAD, VB, c++ and the DX9 SDK, c++ and OpenGL, and some stuff i can't even remember that have to do with game development...
do ya really want me to bore ya with links to screenshots of some of this... i can give you a ton to look at if ya got nothing better to do with your time...
or you can just leave like you said you would, and remain misinformed...
i can understand that... after all, it's a lot easier to deny a fact if it goes against what you'd like to hear... than it is to accept it.
the stuff that you and Expert preached were wrong... mis statements of non factual creations from your own imagination... plain and simple.
hey, while we're at it... can you direct me to a screenshot or two of some work that you are doin... any work... anything at all...
even some web development from your web site might be interesting...
anything...
if not, that's ok too... time to get back on topic anyway...
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: Red Ocktober]
#34613
10/17/04 10:25
10/17/04 10:25
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 172 UK
uman
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 172
UK
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: uman]
#34614
10/17/04 12:02
10/17/04 12:02
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 815 NY USA
Red Ocktober
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... that's it!!!
... just that one shot!!??
ohhh well, i did ask for just anything, didn't i...
ok, without sounding too judgemental or anything, i think i now am starting to understand why you posted the things you did...
there's nothing in that shot that couldn't have been done in any of the dev tools that we've touched upon in this thread...
and while it's a good start, there are some things that you might consider looking into... (like those trees and light poles not having any shadows while the structures near em do for one)...
plus, the idea you had of having hundreds of these buildings in a single level... well, me thinks you should be look at thata lil more too... (like some way of splitting the level, seeing as the view is by default gonna be limited to a few immediate buildings in most cases anyway)...
and thinking that using that as a point of issue to prove that one engine is better than another is pure...
well, lets just say it doesn't really prove anything... except maybe that the person trying to do it hasn't really thought out their situation, or their options fully.
but hey, this is the wrong place to go into all of that, and you didn't ask for a critique now, did you...
also, to be completely fair, it wouldn't be sporting of me not to give you something to criticize in return...
what do you (and all those people you said were waitin') wanna see... since i'm making a sub sim, it'll most likely be limited to subs... here are a few screenshots that i have lying around the web...
subs in 3drad
subs in Torque
subs in BlitzBasic
subs in Dark Basic
subs (testing new water code) in 3dgs A6
... so, ya see... i've done just a lil in a few of these game 'engines'.
now, can we get back on topic... i mean, this after all is supposed to be a shader thread... in spite of the fact that from it's incept it was very loosely related.
if you still wanna debate this start a new thread over in general discussions or somewhere...
--Mike
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Re: Reality Factory Meets Doom3 !!!
[Re: Red Ocktober]
#34615
10/17/04 21:37
10/17/04 21:37
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,856
TheExpert
Senior Developer
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Senior Developer
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,856
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OK i will stop debate after two words :
I've nothing to post : i just can say i've worked on tools for different projects : visibilty and portals editor,collision editor, object model attach editor .... ,and now i'm creating a zelda style RPG with 3DGS :for now i'm modeling,texturing,animating :
why not programming ?
Because the models and level quality ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING : MOST IMPORTANT THAN THE 3D ENGINE !
the 3D Engine must also be good but it is 2nd place !
wait some weeks to see screens !! (i have to create a new site also that wil host the screens!)
i was programmer : Dark basic,DBPro,Blitz3D,Crystal Space,some Direct3D , TV3D,3DGS
now that's some one year i do very little programming and i'm turning to modeling and texturing skills instead and i will program when the 3D things of my game will be done ! i prefer to do a one person game (me) after that perhaps join a team !
OK Torque has real time lightning , but hey it has some things to bring : with 3DGSA6 :you already have shaders(bump specular etc..) and stencil shadows !
And don't contest that scripting with 3DGS is very very fast if you look at the new manuals ! Torque is very far from that simplicity and more complicated for all !
But , I don't see lot fo games made with Torque and i repeat is not as ease of use as 3DGS ! I dont know: show me some games made with torque not the 4 or 5 little games like orbz in their site !
3DGS has more than 1 mmorpg developped actually ! and a lot of other games with demos !
Torque hasn't a lot , because less easy etc ... i don't care about network power of torque : i'm making a local game like Zelda !
Well i stop here : if you want we will discuss in the very long torque topic of 3DGS !
Hey i'm not against torque : that' just i'm not convinced at all about this engine ! that's why i use 3DGS ! Ciao !
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