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Why so serious? #398235
03/29/12 22:38
03/29/12 22:38
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,751
Canada
WretchedSid Offline OP
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WretchedSid  Offline OP
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Canada
So, this actually is a blogpost I made a while ago but never posted here (for some reason I totally forgot)... So now that I discovered the file again on my disk, I thought I might as well share it with you. The text is copied 1:1 from my blog (which totally isn't worth reading since I barely write anything).


Quote:
This blogpost is about something that bugged me for quite some time and recently I stumbled about this again and thus decided to write this post. I'm talking about the AAA wannabe-ism that mostly catches young indie game developers.

AAA is not the holy grail!
So, what exactly am I talking about? I'm talking about the apparent urge of young game developers to copy bad ideas of big studios or companies just so their games look AAA-like. This already starts with small and little things, eg. the nightmare of UX concepts; A launcher. They have no use case whatsoever, because everything they offer could also be done ingame, the only use they have is to annoy the user. I don't want to view your fucking website when I double click awesomegame.exe (or .app) and I don't want to enter the options (something I need to do only once if ever!), so stay the hell away from me with this launcher crap! But hey, big titles like Mass Effect or Skyrim have them, they can't be that bad, can they? Oh by the way, did you know what they also have? Longcat like long loading screens for tiny levels and here is a small anecdote taken from my youth (aka just a few years ago); I was in the process of working on my first bigger project called Die Händler and one day I figured that my levels loaded way too fast compared to big games. But my project was a big game, it was epic, it was awesome, why was it so fast? I decided to pause the level loading for just five seconds to make it look like it was doing something really incredible complex (while it just wasted CPU cycles like a boss). A horrible idea in retrospect, ripping out something that should be considered awesome, fast level loading, to look like the standard bloatware from the shelf.

If only this was everything a indie developer could copy, but the worst part is this Shader fetish most people developed. If it doesn't look like the most artificial plastic, its considered not photorealistic and crappy looking. This starts with glossy looking bump mapping on every surface (most of the times with a non fitting bump map generated from a low resolution texture) and ends with post processing effects that just vomit into your face (depth of field that defines depth as anything further than 5cm away from your face for example). Why are you doing this? Why are you trying to drown everything in shaders? It almost looks like people forget that a good atmosphere isn't the same as great graphics, but most indie titles with superb graphics have a horrible atmosphere. Luckily there are great projects which are doing it right, Amnesia: The dark descent for example, or Superku. Those projects use shaders too (its impossible to not use them), but they use them to create a great atmosphere and not try to just add everything that the next best AAA title has. So don't get me wrong, shaders per se aren't bad! Depth of field can be a really great effect, as long as its not completely shoved into my face. But don't think that more equals better!

You are indie!
I could continue this post for quite some time, listing only the stuff that I think isn't worth copying, but I guess you too know that copying isn't the best idea. So instead, let me encourage you; Be different! You are indie for gods sake, you are free to do whatever you want, experiment with the genres, styles, graphics and everything you want! Don't copy, impress by being unique and telling your story the way it is great for you and your game, not the way its done over and over again in the industry. This is your chance to do something very impressive, it became unbeliveable easy to get started with creating games, even if you never programmed before. Even if you don't have access to any assets, all you have to do is to be creative. But being creative requires to think out of the box, so please don't try to hide yourself inside the big AAA box.

Beside that, you mostly don't have the resources a big company has. You can't afford high polyogn models with photorealistic textures and everything and you certainly can't do it alone. Its impossible to compete alone against a large studio with up to hundreds of professionals, each one having one very specific task. As you don't copy this aspect, don't bother with copying just the bad stuff they do.



Shitlord by trade and passion. Graphics programmer at Laminar Research.
I write blog posts at feresignum.com
Re: Why so serious? [Re: WretchedSid] #398238
03/29/12 22:44
03/29/12 22:44
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,252
Hummel Offline
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Hummel  Offline
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So true. Very good.

Re: Why so serious? [Re: Hummel] #398239
03/29/12 23:40
03/29/12 23:40
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 873
S
Shadow969 Offline
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Shadow969  Offline
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Posts: 873
seconded. especially the loading screen part laugh

Re: Why so serious? [Re: Shadow969] #398243
03/30/12 03:48
03/30/12 03:48
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
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Damocles  Offline
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Good statements (apart from the Launcher wich can have simply technical reasons).
Especially about the horrible misuse of shaders and high poly models.

Quote:
Beside that, you mostly don't have the resources a big company has. You can't afford high polyogn models with photorealistic textures and everything and you certainly can't do it alone. Its impossible to compete alone against a large studio with up to hundreds of professionals, each one having one very specific task. As you don't copy this aspect, don't bother with copying just the bad stuff they do.


This I would tell to any Indy dev who buys these high-poly models.
They spend like 50€ for 2 characters in high quality, while
then running out of budget and using some low-poly or
low resolution assets with a completely different style
wich they clamp together from everywhere.

Resulting in a totally inconsistant look. Like a Monty Python collage.

The reason is simply that they cant in a reasonable timeframe
create (or let create for "free") enough models of the same quality for
a game bigger than a short prototype.

Indies dont have the time to create by themself artwok in that quality in that amount while keeping consistant.
They will loose motivation quickly. And there is not a monthly payslip compensating for that.
I doubt that every Indy has the endurance like a Harry P to
work on that for years to get a full set of high quality assets.

Deciding on a graphical style early wich looks good but can be
also realized for a FULL game is one of the most important
steps in developing a (Indy) game.

If you buy an Artpack, look for affortable pack(s) that offers
80% of the modeltypes you will need in the same quality and artstyle.
Preferably from the same Artist or Stylegroup.
The rest could be done by adapting and modifying them for
the remaining assets.

Re: Why so serious? [Re: Damocles] #398246
03/30/12 06:37
03/30/12 06:37
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 619
Turkey, Izmir
Emre Offline
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Emre  Offline
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Turkey, Izmir
Good points. For example; my game is quite good, but it's similar to Penumbra&Amnesia. In the past, i was happy about that. But now... NO. Now i am very discontent about that. I am not beginner anymore and my game style is not original and this is dead-end street. Yes, Amnesia is good example for good atmosphere & game style, especially for indie developers. But "copying style" is terrible mistake. As JustSid said; Be different!.

I want to say more, but you know my english isn't good enought...
I really liked this article. Thank you, JustSid.

Edit: I mean; we don't have to make AAA game. We have to make good atmosphere, gameplay and gamestyle. And we have to be little different.

Re: Why so serious? [Re: Emre] #398255
03/30/12 09:55
03/30/12 09:55
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,113
NRW/Germany
alibaba Offline
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alibaba  Offline
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@Emre
If you want, you can write it in Turkish so i can translate it laugh


Professional Edition
A8.47.1
--------------------
http://www.yueklet.de
Re: Why so serious? [Re: alibaba] #398298
03/30/12 18:56
03/30/12 18:56
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 619
Turkey, Izmir
Emre Offline
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Emre  Offline
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Turkey, Izmir
Thank you, alibaba! Here are my words;

Alibaba cevirecegine gore, simdi kendimi rahatca ifade edebilirim.

Ciddi anlamda oyun gelistirme kararimi Silent Hill 2 oynadiktan sonra aldim. Nedenlerini kisaca soyle siralayabilirim;
1-)Bu oyun, cogu filmde olmayan harika ve derin bir senaryoya sahipti.
2-)Icinde cok fazla aksiyon ve karakter olmamasina ragmen harika bir atmosfere sahipti ve oynarken gercekten urkutuyordu. Bunda en onemli etkenler ayrintili kaplamalar, Akira Yamaoka'nin yarattigi kakofonik sesler, gercekci harita tasarimlariydi.

Bu oyunu oynadiktan sonra kendimi ifade etmek adina kendi oyunumu yapmaya karar verdim. Sizleri bilmiyorum ama benim icin oyun, sadece eglenceden ibaret degil. Oyun yapmak aynı zamanda kendimizi ifade etmenin, hayal dunyamizi paylasmanin bir yolu olarak da kullanilabilir.

Peki tek basima basarili bir oyunu nasil yapabilirdim? Bu cevabi ararken Penumbra'yi kesfettim. Sadece iki kisiyle yapilmisti. Oyunda cok sayida dusman yoktu, kaplamalari kalitesizdi ama atmosferi harika ve oynanisi eglenceliydi. Penumbra, ciddi bir yapimin iyi olmasi icin, her seyin AAA kalite olmasi gerekmediginin en guzel ornegiydi. Gercekten...

Iste boylece cikis noktam bu oyun oldu. Oyun tarzimi bu sekilde belirledim, ve (tamamlamamis olsam da) istedigim seviyede bir oyun yapmayi (en azindan demosunu tamamlamayi) basardim.

2007 yilinda oyun gelistirmeye basladigimda poligonun bile ne oldugunu bilmedigimden, yıllar icinde boyle bir oyun yapabilmek benim icin buyuk bir basari gibi gorunmustu. Aslinda gercekten de oyle. Bu benim icin buyuk bir basari. Ama gozden kacirdigim bir sey vardi. Penumbra'nın o cok sevdigim oynanisini ve efektlerini, -fare imleciyle nesneler tutup firlatmak, kapilari ve cekmeceleri tutup cekmek, ani korku efektleri vs.- neredeyse tumuyle oyunuma entegre etmistim. Sonunda oyunum neredeyse Penumbra'nin bir benzeri olmustu. Acemiyken bu durum beni hic rahatsiz etmemisken, simdi fazlasiyla rahatsiz ediyor. Oyunumu oynayanlardan hep olumlu tepkiler alsam da "Amnesia gibi!" cumlesini duydugumda gercekten rahatsiz oluyorum.

Nicin oyunum icin Showcase'de baslik acmadim biliyor musunuz? Acsaydim cogunuz beni tek basima boyle bir proje yapmayi basardigim icin takdir edecektiniz. Ayni zamanda guzel oneriler verecektiniz ve bana katkilarda, belki yardimlarda bulunacaktiniz. Ama ve lakin hepiniz su cumleyi kuracaktiniz ; "Amnesia' ya benziyor." Acemiyken bunu bir ovgu olarak kabul ederdim, simdi ise mumkun degil. Oyunumun senaryosu ozgun(orjinal) olsa da, siz onu oynarken ozgun bir oyun oynuyormussunuz gibi hissetmiyorsaniz, bu benim icin buyuk bir basarisizliktir. Bu, butun oyun gelistiriciler icin boyle olmali. Iste bu yuzden bir onceki yazimda "CIKMAZ SOKAK" terimini kullandim.

JustSid cok guzel bir yazi yazmis. Penumbra ve Amnesia guzel ornekler. Bunlara bir de Call of Cthulhu:DCOTE 'yi eklemeliyim. Grafikleri zamanin gerisinde olmasina ragmen, harika bir atmosfere ve oynanisa sahipti. Bizim forumda da gordugum en ozgun oyun tabi ki Superku.

Simdi size arkadasiniz olarak bir tavsiyem olacak;
Oyununuzu shader'lara bogarak ya da AAA kalite oyunlari takip ederek bir yere varamazsiniz. İyi bir oyunu iyi yapan, atmosferi, oynanisi ve en onemlisi ozgunlugudur. JustSid'in verdigi ornekleri inceleyin ama sakin benim yaptigim hatayi yapmayin. Bir oyunun stilini taklid etmeyin. Oyununuz bir "Redsident Evil", "Amnesia", "FarCry" "vs." benzeri/kopyasi olmasin. Acemiyken bu tur benzetmeler kulaga hos gelebilir. Ama unutmayin ki bu oyunu kisa surede tamamlayamayacaksiniz ve zaman gectikce profesyonelleseceksiniz. Iste o zaman bu benzetmelerden rahatsiz olacaksiniz ve oyununuz guzel olsa da, diger oyunun golgesinde kalacak.

Bagimsiz gelistirici olarak istediginiz seyi yapmakta ozgursunuz. yeni bir seyler bulun. Akliniza bir sey gelmiyorsa, arkadaslarinizla beyin firtinasi (brain storming) yapin. Farkli olun ki emekleriniz bosa gitmesin.

Hepinize iyi calismalar.

Waiting for translating...Thanks to Alibaba!

Re: Why so serious? [Re: Emre] #398301
03/30/12 20:52
03/30/12 20:52
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,113
NRW/Germany
alibaba Offline
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Okay, i really hope that the sense of his post still exists in my translation ^^
However, here it is:
Quote:

"I decided to do serious game development after i have played Silent Hill 2.
For the following reasons:
-This game had a deep scenario, which not many movies have
-Although there were not too much action or many characters, the game had a great atmosphere,
which really frightened

And after playing this game i decided to do my own one. I donīt know what you think,
but for me a game does not only consist of entertainment. Making a game is a way to express
ourselves and our fantasy.

So how could i possibly create a successful game?
While searching for this answer i discovered Penumbra.
It was done by two people.
Although it did not have many enemies and poor skinning it was entertaining,
because the atmosphere was great and it was fun to play.
Penumbra is the best example to show, that serious game development does not need AAA quality.

Thus was the starting point of my game. This is the way i set my game up, and (though i have not
completed) managed to complete at least a demo.

In 2007 i started to develop the game, although i didnīt even know what a polygon was.
And to make a game like this was a great success for me.
But there was something i was missing.
I integrated nearly every game mechanic from Penumbra, like holding objects with the mouse and so on.
Finally my game was almost a copy of Penumbra.
This did not bother me when i was a newbie, but now it annoys me.
Even when get positive responses like "Itīs like Amnesia!" it annoys me.

Do you know why i did not open a thread for my game in the showcase?
If i would have done that, you would have appreciated me, because iīve done that myself.
At the same time you would gave me suggestions, and maybe some assistance or even contributions.
But iīm sure most of you would have used this sentence "It looks like Amnesia".
I would have accept this as beginner, but now itīs impossible.
Even if my scenario is original, if you donīt feel like itīs original, itīs a failure for me.
This should apply to all game developer.
Because of this i used the term "Dead End" before.

JustSid wrote a nice post. Penumbra and Amnesia are great examples. We could also add Call of Cthulhu.
Although the graphics are bad, it had a great gameplay.
And the most original game iīve seen in this forum is Superku.

Now i want to give you an advice as your friend.
By drowning your game with shaders and trying to reach AAA quality youīll get nowhere.
A good game consists of atmosphere, gameplay and most important, uniqueness.
Keep JustSidīs examples in mind and donīt make my mistake.
Donīt imitate the style of another game. Your game should not be a copy.
It may sound great as a beginner, but keep in mind that you wonīt finish it.
And even when you get professional and your game is great, it will stay in the shadow of the copied game.

As an Indie you have the freedom to do whatever you want. Find something new.
If you canīt find a new idea, do brainstorming with your friends.
Be different, so your work does not get wasted."




Professional Edition
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http://www.yueklet.de
Re: Why so serious? [Re: alibaba] #398462
04/02/12 12:46
04/02/12 12:46
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
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Great blog laugh

For time loading, Mass Effect 3 is now very short, and Skyrim, just take 1 or 3 seconds when you change from indoor : that's named progress !

Its impossible to compete alone against a large studio with up to hundreds of professionals, each one having one very specific task

Indeed, and these big companies alos take some independent contracts to make some 3D assets, character etc ...

When i see the level of Mass Effect 3 in terms of global experience : motion capture, cinematics, 3D effects, textures quality and size, level design and complexity, engaging and fun gameplay etc ... i can't imagine the years it would take to a lonewolf to make just one playable level ... without like a lot of people :
ABANDONNING A TOO MUCH BIG TASK laugh

Yep, i see Indie for little games or less big and less complex, , with original ideas, good finition , and what i could name : "ATTRACTIVE POINTS"
Could it be special graphics (Dot Game Heroes) , gameplay (Limbo, Breed, Minecraft ... ) , Music , etc ... or just a big FUN entertainment at final !

Indie games reminds me a lot the time of SNES or CPC, Amiga games i had !
You insert the game, just hit start ; perhaps a brief and quick introduction, and here you go , you start playing something fun in the fiorst seconds laugh





Last edited by ratchet; 04/02/12 12:48.

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