As I mentioned in a previous thread a month or two ago, I used to spend quite a lot of time on this forum a few years ago. I was immature at times but the experiences I had here affected me personally quite a bit too. In fact, it's because of all the time I spent here that I was inspired to spend some time at uni studying German (even though I unfortunately would have little use for it, unless I traveled to Germany sometime). And I've been enjoying it quite a lot!

That being said, now that I've taken a few courses in it at uni, it's interesting to think back on some of the posts I remember reading here, where the majority of users are from Germany or at least know English only as a second language. The way you guys tend to write English here is frankly somewhat different than someone who knows it as their first language.

Now, don't get me wrong, the majority of you (esp. the old timers) write English *very* well. In fact, I'd say that you probably write it better than at least half of my family. And in most cases, the occasional tiny mistakes or structural differences are so insignificant and minor that they only serve to color your writing a bit. It's actually pretty endearing!

But...

There is one glaring mistake that even the experienced among you will make when you drop your guard. I've noticed this forever. It's probably the worst mistake you guys make.

It's the way you use commas!

See, in German, the use of commas is pretty straightforward and easy to get. Every time you have a subordinating clause, you separate it from everything else with a comma, which is just great for me personally, because it makes your language just that bit easier to learn and use.

Unfortunately, in English it is not so simple. For example, in German you might write this:

"Der Mann, der das Fenster geöffnet hat, war kalt."

But in English you could never ever write this:

"The man, who opened the window, was cold."

That's stilted and weird. This is the only correct way:

"The man who opened the window was cold."

The reason is that in English, commas pretty much always prescribe a literal pause, so if you put commas everywhere, then your writing ends up sounding stilted and unnatural. That being said, in English, the "rules" for using commas are unfortunately rather complicated. In fact, there really aren't any strict rules. There are "guidelines" which tell you the way to write something so that it "sounds right" but generally, the rules are pretty loose. Meaning the only way you'll be able to really master it is by getting it wrong and having somebody like me tell you how bad at English you are. :3

In all seriousness, it really is hard to explain when to use commas and when not to use them. That probably doesn't sound very encouraging, but the fact is that most of the time, people who learn English as their first language simply rely on a sort of "intuition" that tells them when to do it, which in turn relies on how the language sounds to them when they read their own words in their head. Like I said before, commas pretty much always imply pauses in English, so if you're writing something and you think it needs a comma, you would first have to ask yourself: "Would I actually pause there when I speak, or would I just keep going?" If you stop to pause, you probably need a comma. If you don't stop, you can probably omit the comma.

That's challenging advice because it requires that you read your sentences like an English person, but if you practice a lot I'm sure you could get it.

All that being said, to help you out, here are some examples of when to use commas, and when not to use commas:

"The girl ate some food, because she was hungry."
"He saw the guy, whom he talked with yesterday."
"The file, that I started downloading, has finished."

Those are all wrong. They sound like somebody from Germany failing at English. These ones are right:

"The girl ate some food because she was hungry."
"He saw the guy whom he talked with yesterday."
"The file that I started downloading has finished."

Even Sherlock would never be able to figure out who wrote those sentences.

I love you guys, but you must start getting this right, because it's probably the number one thing that's holding you all back from being masters at English!

Okay, that's all. I'm done criticizing your grammar now. :3

Jesus, I can't even use commas in German and now you want me to use them correctly in English as well? Who are you? Adolf Hitler?!

No, but seriously, for me it's kind of the other way around, this forum is what actually got me to learn english to begin with. Before joining here, I was too timid to write anything in English, so my first few posts and threads here are in German, but the truth is, without writing English you won't go far here (or anywhere on the internet, really).
And my English was really bad in the beginning, like, atrociously bad and then some more. But having native speakers here that wouldn't jump all up my throat (unlike my English teacher at the time. Hey Ms. Rausch, go suck a big one!), but instead would just talk to me, well, the forum in general, in more or less perfect English helped tremendously.

PS: If someone dares to correct my commas, I will cry myself to sleep tonight.

I found this in a thread some place:




No!

"So in a fire fight you will always hear when a guard opens the door behind you."

Awesome post. Thank you. Interpunctuation is indeed difficult for germans here and there. Sometimes it's hard for us to read long English sentences because we miss the commas that would otherwise give structure to the sentence for us.

Btw.: It's "De->m<- Mann, der das Fenster geöffnet hat, war kalt". I guess you wanted to express that the man who opened the window was freezing. "Der" is only correct if you want to express that his temperature was low. One of those traps I guess.

Oh, I, put, a, comma, in, the, wrong, place.

Alternativ könnte ich natürlich einfach in Deutsch sabbeln, da ist die Chance nicht ganz so groß, dass ich die Kommas vergurke.

Thanks for the tip. I didn't know there was actually a distinction for that in German; in English, you're either cold, or you're cold. You could also freeze if you're cold, but that's a little extreme.

Amen! I meant, Heil, err or whatever!

Something else I should mention since I'm mostly talking about subordinating clauses:

In English it's okay to drop the relative pronoun sometimes, so "The TV that I bought today" becomes "The TV I bought today." That happens pretty much all the time when people speak English and is grammatically correct too, so sometimes you see it written as well. Fair warning in case any of you spend any length of time over here and start wondering where everyone has put their pronouns.


All I know is that I hate everything (esp. Jews, the bastards) and Aryan is master race.

tl;dr: Simply never use commas ever!


In seriousness, nice thread. I never know when to place commas in my sentences, so I am likely one of those offenders. Sorry! It wasn't personal, I assure you.


Also - be honest - did you read your post through several times to be 100% super-sure you didn't make any comma-mistakes?

SUPER-EDIT: I actually had "Please send me a PM and let me know when I made a language mistake!" in my signature for the longest time. I got exactly one PM correcting my language.

we use also much more commas because in Hungarian sentences have more free structure. basically our language significantly differs from all European languages (except Finnish and Estonian, but as I know we don't have any common word)
I think those of Uralian peaple who preferred warmer weather (or simply wanted to produce good wines?) now live here in the dark purple zone:

and I personally don't like capital letters