|
2 registered members (TipmyPip, izorro),
556
guests, and 2
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Depth: A Half-Life Example
[Re: Blattsalat]
#76455
02/08/07 20:04
02/08/07 20:04
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
|
Quote:
But all of those games have a big replay motivation factor. somthing i am missing in games today.
Definately. However it's not really important if a game is linear or not, as long as the game gives the player enough freedom of choice. The GTA series is a big hit because of the whole sense of freedom. (apart from that some of their missions are actually interesting enough to be played two or three times). Interesting features like Max Payne's bullettime slow-motion won't really increase the replay value eventhough it's very cool to do over and over again, I guess in such a case there's a lack of freedom?
Cheers
|
|
|
Poll: To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#76456
02/08/07 23:56
02/08/07 23:56
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
|
To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
I think that I've got an extraordinary good idea to simplify and intensify social interaction in games.
It is by looking at an npc or looking not at him, which are signals like recognizing and ignoring, this is a simple and fast action by a short move of the mouse which is very close to the real life action of recognizing and ignoring! Even, if the player's character is mute and the npcs are mute too, he can interact with the npcs making many different decisions. Everything controlled by the move of recognition!
To rephrase my intentions from the former posts: I want to intensify the identification and raise the value of social simulations within an intuitiv gameplay! To raise the value of social simulations, I have to increase the number of options within interactions without making the controls complicating.
Let's use the idea in the Tom Sawyer Experiment.
Imagine, there is the first kid coming, Tom, the player's character paints the fence.
Let them communicate by looking.
The kid comes, stops and looks at Tom, if Tom doesn't look, the kid goes away from him, if Tom turns from his work to the kid and looks at the kid, the kid stays and looks at him. Now, if Tom turns to his work again, the kid stays for a while and if Tom doesn't look at it again, it goes away, if Tom turns towards it within this while again, the kid stays another while longer.
Tom feeds the kid with attention (recognition), and the kid pays it back with attention (recognition), getting no additional recognition from Tom it goes away.
I'm not sure, if you are aware of the similarity of attention and recognition. Hope so.
Let's proceed.
The look isn't only attention it is also the control wether one looks at you! This way the look is both: giving attention and receiving attention. When Tom looks at the kid, while it goes away, it wouldn't know that Tom looks at him. I mention this, because of the programming of such an interaction. It is similar to the switch to dialog with a dialog system.
Now, let us add another option. What if the kid looks at Tom, but then at the paint in his hand? Or at the fence? Or at the already painted part of the fence? This means, the characters can look at each other, but they can look at things as well, and these looks mean attention, recognisation, interest.
Now, combine this with the exchange of things among the characters. Let Tom offer the paint. By moving the hand with the paint toward the kid. The kid looks at the paint, looks at Tom again, then looks at the fence, but doesn't do anything else, when Tom continues painting the fence for a while, the kid comes nearer, let continue painting, now the kid shows a hand, turning with Tom towards the kid, we see a marble in its hand. How can we take this marble? Let Tom move an empty hand toward the kid. The kid hides the hand with the marble, and moves an empty hand toward Tom.
The game mechanic: show a thing in a hand to offer it, show an empty hand to ask for a thing.
Let Tom show the hand with the paint in it, but, to make it more complex, when the kid wants to take it, move the hand back and show the empty hand. Then the kid has the option to give the marble, or to show both hands, the empty hand and the hand with the marble, and the player can control Tom, that he does equally, to make the trade perfect.
=========================================== QUESTION:
#1 Is it clear how this concept of an intuitive social interaction works? #2 Does it make sense to you to use such a mechanic within a game? #3 Do you see any potential in such sort of game mechanic?
|
|
|
Re: Poll: To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#76458
02/10/07 13:51
02/10/07 13:51
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427 Japan
A.Russell
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
|
While it would be nice it is also complicated.
Certianly, the way RPGs are done now is lacking. Mostly the NPCs are waiting around somewhere for the player to come up and have a stilted conversation using a conversation tree.
Making NPC behavior more intelligent requires much more complitcated AI and more processor power. Conversation trees are horrible, and I think the reason they are popular is because all programmers learn the tree data structure early in their careers and this is something they can use it for. Need based AI would be preferable to standing in one spot waiting for the player, but again, much more work and difficult to get right. Body languge, as you have suggested, is a terrific idea, but again more overhead.
The more intelligent and non-linear the game becomes, the more difficult it becomes to control. Since it is so much work to program the various events in the game, you want to try to ensure that the player won't miss them, or that they advance too quickly and miss essential parts of the story. By at least setting way-points and events that need to be encountered in order to move forward you can achieve this.
|
|
|
Re: Poll: To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#76459
02/10/07 17:51
02/10/07 17:51
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414 Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
|
This is a very interesting idea and exactly one of these areas, where games have a huge potential. I think in a RPG (or even a shooter) it will always increase the players involvement, if he feels recognized, if there is some attention from others. Something similar (but without any further functionality) was implemented for example in Oblivion, where the NPCs turned to my player, when he was just passing. Especially in the beginning, when I started the game, this gave me motivation to turn to the NPC and start a conversation. However later in the game it felt more like another mechanical event also a little bit exaggerated.
I would probably try to create some kind of hierarchy in social interaction. Here´s just an example:
1) More decorative, than functional: Some NPCs look at your model more or less often, for this or that reason ( because you just became more famous, because you wear some expensive clothes). This just gives the player a feeling: I´m there. My life makes sense.
2) NPC looking at a player for an unusual long time: This is an indication, that this NPC has something to offer, or is of particular interest, depending on the story, but the NPC is too shy to talk directly to the player.
3) NPC directly talks to the player, turning into the archetype of a herald, giving for example information, that is essential for the storyline. In a certain way this is the storytellers equivalent of a mouse click.
In addition to that you could use facial expressions on the NPCs, making this behaviour more nuanced. A long look can mean completely different things ...
In the background there might be some numbers increasing or decreasing on the part of the NPC´s, which determine their general attitude towards your player and the functionality of the storyline. There could be a short term system, like in your example with the marble and the paint. However simply looking around shouldn´t be too functional. I think it doesn´t have to be the only way of social interaction. A mouse click is still more clear and I would prefer a mouse click, if I want directly to turn to someone. The looks should be reserved for subtle, more subconscious approaches. I wouldn´t like a gameplay, where I have to read in a manual: look three times in the direction of the NPC, then his hand will automatically extend ... So I think, your example works great in the beginning, but then maybe it makes things more complicated and I would probably use a more direct approach (traditional mouse click, followed by a dialogue tree). I agree with Phemox. I think these subtle, psychological elements can make a huge difference, but I think you have to deliver them in many variations and in a good balance, because it can be very stupid if something subtle and psychological is implemented in a way, that looks and feels mechanical ...
|
|
|
Re: Poll: To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
[Re: Robotronic]
#76460
02/10/07 22:07
02/10/07 22:07
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
|
@ Phemox: Quote:
The example you give with the kid and the fence is a great example in my opinion.
I'm happy to hear that! Perhaps, one can extend this example to get an even better idea of it and how to combine it with more common gameplay elements!
@ A.Russel:
Quote:
Making NPC behavior more intelligent requires much more complicated AI and more processor power.
A look/look not behaviour should be easely done by a similar system as the dialog tree system.
Quote:
Need based AI would be preferable to standing in one spot waiting for the player, but again, much more work and difficult to get right. Body languge, as you have suggested, is a terrific idea, but again more overhead.
I think you need to program an interface for the author similar to a dialog tree system and a charactersystem in an RPG.
For an author it is more work too, but not as much as one might expect. The author of a screenplay has to write down a complete detailed history of a character, even if he has not much to do within the story and the audience will never see his history within the story of the movie.
Quote:
The more intelligent and non-linear the game becomes, the more difficult it becomes to control. Since it is so much work to program the various events in the game, you want to try to ensure that the player won't miss them, or that they advance too quickly and miss essential parts of the story. By at least setting way-points and events that need to be encountered in order to move forward you can achieve this.
I think it is still good to use scripted parts within the story line. I prefer a linear story with much freedom of behaviour within the arenas. An arena is a part of a level where you have to reach a certain target, before you get/find an entrance to the next arena and experience a progress of the story (in fps, the target is mostly, eliminating the enemies and find a certain key). My interest is mainly focused at the freedom of behaviours within such an arena, and the variability of such arenas. With the story line I would connect this arenas and its individuel tasks/targets in a reasonable order.
@ Robotronic
Quote:
3) NPC directly talks to the player, turning into the archetype of a herald, giving for example information, that is essential for the storyline. In a certain way this is the storytellers equivalent of a mouse click.
Do you remember the NPC in Gothic 1, who always followes the player telling him again and again, that he has found a friend in you, until you are angry at him, and drive him away?
Quote:
There could be a short term system, like in your example with the marble and the paint.
Again in Gothic, there are the fighting arenas, and the npcs react on wether you hold the sword in a hand. They warn you, take their swords, and if you don't put your sword away, they attack you. But, if you are in the fighting arena, and you take your sword, they don't care for you exept that one who was chosen to fight again you.
Similar to that, one could add sort of "event areas", where the npc's behaviour focus on a certain event, like the painting in the Tom Sawyer Example. I think in RPGs it makes sense to use such event areas. For example, you come near to a battle event where comrads of your guild are fighting against enemies, and you leave this event area without helping them against their enemies, then you get trouble later, when trying to get shelter in their base.
Quote:
However simply looking around shouldn´t be too functional. I think it doesn´t have to be the only way of social interaction.
What about my suggestion to use it in combination with the gestures of offering and demanding. Let's add the hand signal of denying, or isn't that very elementary for an easy-to-use interaction set?
(An additional idea:) What about using mouse movements for hand signals, it shouldn't be complicating to implement and use such a thing, because mouse movements are already used for casting spells in Black & White and other games.
Quote:
I wouldn´t like a gameplay, where I have to read in a manual: look three times in the direction of the NPC, then his hand will automatically extend ...
Then it isn't intuitiv anymore, for sure. I guess it is a matter of its introduction and its reasonable use.
Imagine a scene within the beginning of a game, your waiting in an elevator with an npc, the npc doesn't say a word, but as soon as you look at him, he introduces himself to you, and, if you continue looking at him, he tells you his whole life, until you turn away, then he says sorry to bother you, and stops talking. Then the elevator reaches a floor and stops, but the door doesn't open. You look at him, and he says: Don't look at me, I don't know what's happening now, too! If you don't stop looking at him, he says: Why are you starring at me?, and he hits the buttons of the elevator as if he tries to get a result...
Quote:
I think these subtle, psychological elements can make a huge difference, but I think you have to deliver them in many variations and in a good balance, because it can be very stupid if something subtle and psychological is implemented in a way, that looks and feels mechanical ...
A good reason to integrate such behaviour in games with a more cartoony and artificial character, because that way the gamer is more willing to accept unnatural behaviour and tries to interpret it in a empathetic way.
|
|
|
Re: Poll: To Look Or Look Not At As Game Mechanic
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#76461
02/11/07 13:27
02/11/07 13:27
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414 Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
|
Quote:
I prefer a linear story with much freedom of behaviour within the arenas.
I like this definition and I think you could extend it to the dimension of time. So I think it is possible to arrange certain events or situations in a dramatic order. In classical storytelling these events might be called "plot points". The player can approach them in different ways (enjoying his freedom) but there are certain predefined points, he must pass or certain quests, he must solve in order to reach the ultimate goal.
Quote:
Do you remember the NPC in Gothic 1, who always followes the player telling him again and again, that he has found a friend in you, until you are angry at him, and drive him away?
I didn´t play Gothic I, but I remember, that there was a similar NPC in Baldurs Gate II, who was following my player and getting on his/my nerves. There were two ways, how to deal with him: a) throw stones after him b) don´t throw stones after him (and get reward fo being Mr Nice Guy later)
I think everyone has experienced this: you (as the player) want to make progress in a game and dialogue situations are slowing down this progress. In a certain way they stop or interrupt the game like the dialogue titles in old silent movies. It can be irritating, especially in dramatic situations. In this special case the programmers turned this limitation basically into a narrative moment/emotion.
Quote:
Again in Gothic, there are the fighting arenas, and the npcs react on wether you hold the sword in a hand.
In Gothic II I think this was impemented throughout the whole game with little variations. In the town it was absolutely forbidden and treated (after a warning) like a crime. There were however logical exceptions and all in all it felt very natural. I think such things can be implemented and dealt with depending on different conditions (areas, special situations, comparisons). About mouse gestures, I´m not sure. I think it´s a matter of taste. Is it really more intuitive, then hitting a keyboard button? One has to make sure, that it doesn´t happen unintentionally. However in Black and White they made sense and for spells or some magic stuff they might even make it more interesting. For example a complicated, but powerful spell requires a very special mouse gesture, so there will be a parallel between the players drawing qualities and his magic capabilities. Maybe the players hands would even follow the mouse gestures, and if the gestures are correct some particle effects show up and the player automatically says some mysterious words ...
In your example with the demanding/accepting hands it might also work. I think it depends on the game as a whole. If it is more complex and there are lots of items, that can be demanded/accepted one would probably have to enter some sort of trade menue anyway, so I think a mouse click followed by a dialogue/trade exchange might still be better. If you implement this as a special-area-only feature, then how would you make sure, that the player knows, that he has to make a gesture instead of a mouse click?
But I like this example with the elevator. There could be very subtle kinds of interactions, depending on conditions. I was just recently finishing a modelling tutorial, where I learned to make shape keys, lip sync and facial expressions. All of this could be used in a functional way. It could strengthen the realism and give the player a very interesting dimension in gameplay.
Think of this typical situation: Your player needs information and goes into the local bar. Usually you would now click from one NPC to the next, reading one dialogue tree after the other (which can be boring). But in this new bar, you better look at the faces of the NPCs. Some of them even get angry if you look at them for too long. Most of them see you as a stranger. But there is one NPC, who smiles back, nodding with the head. He´s the one to make contact with first, he will then introcduce you to another NPC ...
There is however one tricky issue: In real life there is a difference between looking in someone´s direction and looking at someone. I mean a look can mean nothing and then many different things. In my bar example it would be almost impossible not to look at someone. So there has to be a way to tell the game programm, that we look at someone. Maybe with a special area within the view ...?
Last edited by Robotronic; 02/11/07 13:41.
|
|
|
Mouse Moves To Hand Signs
[Re: Robotronic]
#76462
02/11/07 16:04
02/11/07 16:04
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
|
Quote:
There is however one tricky issue: In real life there is a difference between looking in someone´s direction and looking at someone. I mean a look can mean nothing and then many different things. In my bar example it would be almost impossible not to look at someone. So there has to be a way to tell the game programm, that we look at someone. Maybe with a special area within the view ...?
'To look at' could mean, that the chosen npc is in the center of the player's view (within first person camera), or (third person perspective), the npc is marked by a light or a frame around him after looking at him a certain minimum of time.
About how mouse gestures could connect to hand gestures:
An example for several gestures:
Right click and hold the mouse, move it slowly forward and stop: the right hand, normaly the hand with the item, offers the item.
Left click and hold the mouse, move it slowly forward and stop: the right hand, normaly the hand without an item, asks/demands for something.
Clicking and holding both mouse buttons and move them slowly forward: moves both hands against the npc, and offers the item in exchange to something demanded.
Move the mouse back, when the npc offers an item for trading, means declining the trade.
Right click and hold the mouse, move it _fast_ forward against the npc: the right hand pushs forward against the npc, and, if holding a tool or weapon, hits him.
Right click and hold the mouse, move it slowly forward and move it fast a short way back: the right hand shows its palm against the npc: common sign for 'stop' and 'no'. 'No' can be shown more explecitely by moving the mouse from sidewards from left to right and back repeatingly.
Last edited by Pappenheimer; 02/11/07 22:10.
|
|
|
Re: Mouse Moves To Hand Signs
[Re: TheExpert]
#76464
02/12/07 13:09
02/12/07 13:09
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181 Austria
Blattsalat
Senior Expert
|
Senior Expert
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
|
i wouldnt go that far. One simple method that could make the rpg life a lot easier would be a "no/ok" system based on the mouse movement. Answering yes with up-down mouse moves and no with left-right moves could improve play quality a lot and make those anyoing yes(no interactions less time consuming. as for the looking effect: i am not sure but i think thats quite usual in current games. halflife, fable aso interact with the player not only with point and click but also with "appearance and recognicion". The problem with the trading system is the offer and demand cycle would only work for one itme. As soon as there are more this could be mre anoying then helpful. Also the looking at somthing to indicate somthing could end up in mayham. This reminds me of the situation parents have when they simply dont know what the kids want because they cant talk to you. YOu would end up in "stop staring at my bag and tell me what the hell you want". but rpgs that offer feedback are more motivating (hence the demand for mmorpgs). running arround a town when you have bought fancy clothes is more fun if you hear one or another time "nice clothes you have there". i know that i would love games to have voice recognicion. speach is the most powerful instrument and should be used a lot more ingame. It might be akward in the beginning to yell at your pc but what gamer hasnt already done that...even though no speach tool was installed 
|
|
|
|