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Re: About women attitudes [Re: Doug] #101417
12/12/06 19:27
12/12/06 19:27
Joined: Jul 2001
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HeelX Offline
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I really have no oppinion. Since I meet and greet everyday geniuses and totally dumbasses all around me, I wouldnt smack it down to the oldish man/woman cliche discussion.

Look: there is this totally screwed up girl, no one likes here because shes so arogant and selfish, she stinks a bit. But I swear, she is one of the smartest scientific addicted people I know. But I don't like her. Oh, and look: there is that guy that is really nice, he asks me stuff about game programming and he has a lot of interest and energy (much more than some noobs we all know).. but he is so stupid.. sometimes I would smack Y, E and S with my fist into my keyboard when he asks me if he is getting on my nerves again. But he is nice and I would miss him if he wouldnt talk to me anymore.

There are so much examples, so much jokes and prejudgement, so that we are some kind of brainwashed about this. Though, it helps us to be "straight" in our mind.. it helps us so that we dont get struggled in our complex and sad world.

Last edited by HeelX; 12/12/06 19:29.
Re: About women attitudes [Re: HeelX] #101418
12/12/06 20:28
12/12/06 20:28
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man Offline
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Ran Man  Offline
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Quote:

I must be a woman then. No, wait, it's all still there.



Haha! Not to imply anything bro.

I was just stating very " generic " tendancies.

Guys tend to like raw ACTION stuff without any plot, but girls tend to like STORIES type stuff. Now it's not true with every individual however.

I never met any female that liked raw action stuff like DUKE 3D for example, but I know that is a very old title.

The 3d shooter Lara Croft and tomb-raider was mainly a guy thing. Guys liked it and most girls did not like it, because lack of a strong story-line.

Roberta Williams was a great "Pioneer" because, yes she designed and wrote interesting stories for games, but also she had super great imagination and creativity, which is something every game-maker should emulate.

Btw, this story-line stuff is exactly what I'm up against in the "CHRISTIAN" gaming world. Most of their stuff is story-line based biblical stuff. It seems boring to me...

About story-line based games:
Why play them? Just read a fictional novel or watch TV?
For Christians, just read the bible.

Why does anyone like them? I feel DISCONNECTED from the crowd on this.

Last edited by Ran Man; 12/12/06 20:32.

Cougar Interactive

www.zoorace.com
Re: About women attitudes [Re: Ran Man] #101419
12/12/06 22:09
12/12/06 22:09
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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Quote:

raw ACTION stuff without any plot, but girls tend to like STORIES type stuff.




Lol, yeah right.. For some reason this reminds me off girls often claiming we men do not think about anything but sex.

Quote:

I never met any female that liked raw action stuff like DUKE 3D for example, but I know that is a very old title.




I don't know any either when it comes to Duke Nukem 3D, however I do know their are quite some female Quake(I t/m IV), America's Army, Joint Operations and Unreal Tournament (I t/m 2004) players out there. It's nothing in numbers compared to the total amount of men playing these kind of games, but there are enough to say that women can really like action games too.

By the way, I've seen on a documentary once that girls did like Tombraider, especially because it "finally had a girl/woman as the main playable character", not forcing girls to play with some "some stupid guy".

Quote:

Why does anyone like them? I feel DISCONNECTED from the crowd on this.




It's all about getting a connection with the story-line, getting involved in the game, attached to the main characters, things like that. Some lack imagination and seem to be totally emotionally imune for a game story line's experience. Compared to movies, most games are not yet really emotionally convincing. It's like you've posted yourself before, why care about some sci-fi guy who doesn't even look real.... We're simply not there yet, when it comes to thát kind of realism, it's one of the main reasons why e.g. Doom3 or Half-life2, although looking great, couldn't really scare me,
(the much much older game Phantasmagoria II did scare the hell out of me, because it was using movie material inside the game, an interactive movie kinda game.)

Cheers

Re: About women attitudes [Re: PHeMoX] #101420
12/13/06 06:43
12/13/06 06:43
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 7,490
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Orange Brat Offline

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Posts: 7,490
Quote:

About story-line based games:
Why play them? Just read a fictional novel or watch TV?
For Christians, just read the bible.

Why does anyone like them? I feel DISCONNECTED from the crowd on this.





People like them for all the same reasons they like books, TV, or films. Plus, they get to interact and hopefully be able to alter the narrative along the way.


My User Contributions master list - my initial post links are down but scroll down page to find list to active links
Re: About women attitudes [Re: Orange Brat] #101421
12/13/06 10:40
12/13/06 10:40
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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JibbSmart Offline
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WA, Australia
I've never gotten excited about storyline-focussed games, but i do enjoy a good story in a game. I enjoy reading a good book, but only if forced to start it, and then i usually wont stay reading it more than halfway. The Bible has some great stories in it, especially the OT... Joshua can be quite violent. Could be great for an action game.

I did Software Design and Development for three terms (completed my Preliminary year and then dropped it because it felt like a waste of time) but anyway, there were about 25 kids in that class and absolutely none of them were girls.
I have no doubt that women are just as capable, but I don't know any who have an interest in these sorts of things, and in fact don't know more than three or four who have more than a vague interest in video games.

Quote:

Why aren't there more in the USA? We were not even allowed to VOTE in this country UNTIL 1920.


Sorry but i had to have a quiet chuckle at this. Most people alive today weren't even born by 1920, let alone were old enough to vote. The quote seems to me a little like "Why didn't I do well in my english essay? People didn't speak english in my family until my Grandad's generation" (which isn't true, btw). Generally -- and i stress the word "generally" -- men are more logical and competitive (not that the two are related) than women, giving them an advantage in business.

Women obviously are very capable -- there are three full-time female maths teachers at our school and one male. There are three full-time science teachers and, again, only one male. In fact, there are three full-time english teachers and only one male. Oh... wait... same deal for social sciences as well. Two-to-one in physical education... and one-nil in cooking. The school Principal is a woman and there are two vice's -- one female and one male.

You know what this confirms.... "those who can't do, teach" Whoa! Settle down! I really didn't mean that.

I am completely aware that women didn't always have the vote, and that many social systems were (and I stress the word "were") sexist, but now I think you'll find it swings both ways. I am not sexist in the slightest. I think people who think men are better than women are foolish. I also think women who complain too much (and I stress the phrase "too much" -- too much stressing in this post) about men and their 'sexist' ways (which is often not the case) are foolish. Jetpack_Monkey, I am not puttin you in this category, btw. This discussion just reminded me of my old History teacher. Thought I'd let you know just in case you mis-construed my two cents worth.

I think I've run out of things to say.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: About women attitudes [Re: AlbertoT] #101422
12/13/06 11:07
12/13/06 11:07
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
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A.Russell Offline
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Quote:

Do you think that men and women have the same skill for math or in general for science ?




Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. For maths, science and engineering, men are "generally" hands down better than women. Those fields also attract far more men than women. Computing, too. Men are far more likely to be geeks than girls are. There are always exceptions, though.

Quote:

That said, you may assume that, in my opinion men, are more intelligent than women




No, it doesn't work like that. Intelligence is not neccessarilly measured by how good you are at physics, maths or how quickly you can solve a Rubic's Cube. Women tend to be much better than men in other fields, like languages for example. If a woman didn't know anything about the sciences, but was fluent in three languages and deeply knowledgable about third century Chinese paintings, you wouldn't think she was unintelligent, would you?

It is true that most genius are men. However, genius often comes with some kind of insanity or social difficulties.

There is no reason why women can't be politicians or managers. In fact, womens' "generally" more refined and perceptive social skills can make them very good leaders and politicians.



Ultimately it comes down to individual strengths, anyway. For example, I've read some of the utter creationist rubbish you've written on this forum, and I would have to say that all the women I know are more knowledgable about science than you are.

Last edited by A.Russell; 12/13/06 11:08.
Re: About women attitudes [Re: A.Russell] #101423
12/13/06 12:39
12/13/06 12:39
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline
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Quote:

I think people who think men are better than women are foolish



Totally Julz

Quote:

women who complain too much (and I stress the phrase "too much" -- too much stressing in this post) about men and their 'sexist' ways



It's silly to 'blame men' (I don't) just as it is to 'blame white people'on racism, but what you can blame is old-world societies based on racist and misogynistic social structures. That's what I meant. America and western european societies have realized this and changed things intelligently over the last couple of decades-- and benefited greatly! Suffrage is just one example of this.

Places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan are just horrible in this way. I don't blame the people of these countries, or their men, but the social system. Iran used to be totally enlightened and progressive before being taken over by religious nutjobs, and now women suffer under it. Women who were brilliant doctors, lawyers, professors now are forced out of participation in society. That's the fault of a social system. Women in Iran are not any less intelligent than men, but the social system keeps many in the dark. Women aren't even allowed to drive there. A quarter of my family in law is from Iran, by the way, and the Persian people themselves are youthful, progressive and fun-- its just the social and religious system they are forced to live under keeps them down.

BTW the USA has done nothing to help women in Afghanistan and Iraq. In old Iraq women had complete social freedom, now that religious extremism has taken over, many can't even go outstide, like in Iran.

Quote:


About story-line based games: Why play them? Just read a fictional novel or watch TV?




Action and sports games are sorts of story line games-- the story is an action story or a story of competition and the thrill of victory or "agony of defeat".. and likewise why play these games when you can watch James Bond or Schwarzenegger movies or a football game on TV? How different is a football match from Braveheart?

The Sims is a story based game where you write the story. Surely the difference between The Sims and (the Excellent show) Desperate Housewives is easy enough to see. They're not the same thing.

Duke Nukem I find very boring, but GTA: San Andreas is a lot of fun and the story really adds to the whole experience, because I care about the characters I'm helping or fighting against. A lot of women find action games boring for the same reason they find mindless action movies boring. The Godfather or The Sopranos have great cross-gender demographic appeal in spite of the violence because the stories are really good.

An excellent article on Idle Thumbs discusses some useful items on appealing to the female gamer demographic: http://www.idlethumbs.net/display.php?id=185&p=2
I've been looking a lot at this information because my game is designed to appeal to both men and women, but leans a little more towards women, like the show Invader Zim. Actually has slightly more women viewers than men!!

In short:

Quote:

Originality
We need to invent some more genres. If we assume that general male and female tastes in film are analogous to games, then violence, driving and sports are generally out. Puzzles are only a small portion of what will work. How can we translate the preference for human drama to games? Adventure games, RPGs and Sims-type stuff all might work, but all still feel flat. We need more intense interaction that will pave the way for the hallowed Emotion Engine (please step forward, Ico!)



Having mentioned The Sims, I'd also like to say that extended game series aren't really going to cut it. Not for a while anyway. As we're opening up this market to the other side of the human race, most of them are going to start as casual gamers. A lot of girls have played The Sims, but what we really don't need is more Sims knockoffs. They've been there, done that. Let's explore something else. There have got to be other ways to portray social interaction in games (check out our recent Façade review for just one). While a popular licence may be great for brand recognition, each successive game ought to have a lot to offer in terms of different gameplay. More of the same is great for adolescent fanboys, but not many others.



More diverse settings
Lay off Sci-Fi. Easy on the Swords and Sorcery. Modern conflict is a big no no. Bizarre mushroom filled lands with no relation to reality have limited success. Film and literature have much to teach us here too. How about something from the 1920s? Or the 50s (a Grease game anyone?) Then there's the hordes of teeny goth chicks - there has to be more for them besides Buffy games and Vampire: The Masquerade. We need to explore all these subcultures and female interests and bring them to the world of games. There's so much potential here I'm not even going to list any more. Just open your eyes.

The themes that games explore are going to have to get more diverse too. Continuing the appeal for human drama, narratives should include things like more complex portrayals of love, friendship, difficult choices and... well whatever it is that the mountains of "chick lit" is about. I'll leave this area of research to the better qualified among you.



Better Characters
Humans are good, although talking animals are also popular. But we need better writing for characters. This is something that plagues the whole game industry and really deserves its own article, but suffice to say that unless female gamers can connect to the people on the screen, any effort you put into narrative and gameplay and style will be severely hampered.



Art, not Graphics
I've talked a lot about gameplay and hinted at interface, but what about the look of the game? It's still got to look good. Appealing design is important to women, and the art in any girl-friendly game must be carried off with style and flair, created by talented artists, architects and fashion designers. The number of polygons and special effects won't mean a damn thing. Photorealism will have its place, but should probably not be sought after too much - the thing about photorealistic CGI people is that, really, they aren't. A consistently pleasant visual ethic is much more important. Oh, and if there is one area where there is a really good chance to attract women into the development community it is on the artistic side.



Don't Alienate the Rest of the Market
Now, you can make a game that meets all of the above requirements and guess what - it can still be enjoyed by us testosterone victims. Making a game aimed solely at a female market such as "middleaged housewives" or "girls aged 9-13" isn't going to be a huge success. It might pay the bills, but in terms of making a great game I think there's an unwritten rule that says it will stink. Any game aimed at women should be a great game first and a female-orientated game second; and I really do belive that if you add a little something for the mainstream game market (no, not skimpily clad women with guns) then the overall game will be better. Females are a diverse lot, and if you aim too narrow then you'll probably miss entirely.



Finally
I haven't covered things like marketing, and only touched on the recruiting side of the issue, but I hope at least some of my suggestions ring true and set off more ideas because, despite the insinuations of the press at large, male gamers and developers really do want more people to join our livelihood. It would be especially great if more of them were female because I think we would all benefit. The general standard and diversity of games would rise and the industry would finally mature as both an entertainment and an artform.

Thing is, there are already quite a few games that nail at least some of the above points. We need to get more women playing the games that are out now, to build on what we've got rather than try to create something out of nothing. With just a little bit of thought and courage, the next age of video games could happen tomorrow.[/qupte]



Re: About women attitudes [Re: JetpackMonkey] #101424
12/13/06 20:56
12/13/06 20:56
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man Offline
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Quote:

BTW the USA has done nothing to help women in Afghanistan and Iraq. In old Iraq women had complete social freedom, now that religious extremism has taken over, many can't even go outstide, like in Iran.



Well in that case, that is why we all need to finish up our games!

Because, if those people do manage to go to an internet cafe in Baghdad or elsewhere on the internet and play our games, then they can escape reality for a while and be entertained by our gamestudio games! Yes?

I guess you guys are right about the story-line game stuff. I suppose we have to force ourselves to get involved in the game story, much like we have to force ourselves to get involved in some bad hollywood movies. And hopefully the story-line won't be too ugly...

My kids always used to talk about Rhinoa in FF8 and how they hated her kooky personality.


Cougar Interactive

www.zoorace.com
Re: About women attitudes [Re: A.Russell] #101425
12/15/06 19:45
12/15/06 19:45
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Posts: 1,245
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AlbertoT Offline OP
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Quote:

That said, you may assume that, in my opinion men, are more intelligent than women




Why did you not quote the complete sentence ?
I said..

( from a scientific point of view ) but it is not like that

Quote:


No, it doesn't work like that. Intelligence is not neccessarilly measured by how good you are at physics
Quote:



Again ...Why did you not quote the complete sentence ?
I said..

( from a scientific point of view ) but it is not like that


Quote:


and I would have to say that all the women I know are more knowledgable about science than you are.




Again ...Why did you not quote the complete sentence ?
I said..

well go and read yourself

Quote:


I've read some of the utter creationist rubbish you've written on this forum,





What ? me a creationist ? Are you jocking I suppose

Re: About women attitudes [Re: Doug] #101426
12/15/06 23:25
12/15/06 23:25
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,298
Beverly, Massachusetts
Rhuarc Offline
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Rhuarc  Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

And imagine all the stories they tell about you, Doug




Heheh, nice thought but I don't think my life is that interesting.




Coming from a guy who gets speeding tickets... on rollerblades.

Tell them that story and see how many times it goes around


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