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Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: NITRO777] #105035
01/12/07 09:19
01/12/07 09:19
Joined: Oct 2003
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Matt_Aufderheide Offline
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Quote:

The earthquake which killed 60,000 or the recent tsunami which killed even more are really very inconsequential considering the 150,000 plus people who die each day through deaths of varying kinds. The only reason why those types of concentrated events capture out attention is the sheer defined focal point of death all in one physical location of geography.




By this reasoning i could go kill a million poeple all over the world, some in each town, and no one would care...


Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.
Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #105036
01/12/07 10:15
01/12/07 10:15
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

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jcl  Offline OP

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Quote:

God has given everyone the freedom of choice




This claim won't convince the jury either, as he has obviously given none of his 60,000 victims any choice.

Even if he had given them a choice, it wouldn't help his defense much. Saddams victims also had the choice to rebel against him or not. He only killed those who rebelled, and their families, and the other people in their villages. Saddam's case has in fact many similarities to God's case, except for the number of the victims that let Saddam look like an amateur in comparison, and for the fact that Saddam gave more choices.



Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: jcl] #105037
01/12/07 10:25
01/12/07 10:25
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
ello Offline
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ello  Offline
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planet.earth
maybe he pleaded for innocence by claiming its all humans fault, why do they do nuclear weapons tests under earth, why do they bore for oil and change the structure of the ground so it rumbles. why do they change the climate so it gives more and more heavy winds and floods?
so, he would get away by bringing the entire responsible human race to court and well, thats it?

Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: ello] #105038
01/12/07 10:27
01/12/07 10:27
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

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jcl  Offline OP

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Nope, that won't help him as the law says you must not kill even when your victim does nuclear weapons tests, digs for oil and does not care about climate change.

Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: jcl] #105039
01/12/07 11:09
01/12/07 11:09
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
ello Offline
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ello  Offline
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planet.earth
well, who can proove that it was god and not the humans? until you are prooved guilty you aint

"A sort of super-police has finally hunted down the last dictator, and is dragging a bearded and unkempt God out of a spider-hole where he hid the last 250 years. Now God is brought before the International Criminal Court in The Hague, under charge of mass murder committed in 1755."

ok, if he hid in a spiderhole for such long(short) time he must be guilty of somewhat at least:)

Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: NITRO777] #105040
01/12/07 23:09
01/12/07 23:09
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline
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Quote:

I must also mention, to avoid misunderstandings, that this God before the ICC is not the Christian god. The usual Christian god, as believed by the majority of Christians, has not inflicted death upon Adam nor allowed the earth quake of Lisboa. He has not directly created man and has no direct influence on earth, so he's not responsible for natural death and disasters. Thus you can't catch him red-handed and drag him before a court.




Who said God did, or was responsible for, any of those things?

Quote:

However the God before the ICC is the US-fundamentalist God. As I've learned, fundamentalists believe their God has inflicted death and suffering as a revenge for Adam's disobedience, called the original "sin". Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong here. As the fundamentalist God can cause or prevent disasters at will, the question the court has to decide is not whether God is responsible or not. The question is indeed, as Nitro pointed out, whether the killing was murder or not.




As far as I see it, the deistic liberal version of God is even worse! He created the universe in such a way that it would be designed for suffering. That kind of sucks.


"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: Irish_Farmer] #105041
01/13/07 11:24
01/13/07 11:24
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

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jcl  Offline OP

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I'm no expert in "liberal versions" of God, maybe there are many such versions. But modern Christians usually believe that God did not create the Universe and can not physically influence events on earth. He's more an idea than a physical entity, and thus is not responsible for death and suffering.

Only US fundamentalists still believe that their God, just as Hitler or Saddam, personally inflicted death and suffering as retaliation for disobedience. See:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp

The bible doesn't directly claim that God invented death, this belief is some fundamentalist specialty. However according to the bible God often incited others to murder and genocide, acted as an accomplice to murder, or committed mass murder himself.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html


Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: jcl] #105042
01/13/07 15:14
01/13/07 15:14
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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AlbertoT Offline
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"Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

A god of love , Do christians claim ?

No comment

Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: AlbertoT] #105043
01/13/07 16:24
01/13/07 16:24
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Posts: 8,177
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Hehehe, yes, but according to (any) literal interpretation of the bible God would be a discriminating and often hateful and destructive being. His love seems to be a promise, but never a gift or reward.

Cheers


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Re: God's Defense Strategy [Re: jcl] #105044
01/13/07 16:44
01/13/07 16:44
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777 Offline
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Quote:

Only US fundamentalists still believe that their God, just as Saddam, personally inflicted death and suffering as retaliation for disobedience. See:




I dont want to jar your thinking about US fundamentalist Christians that much, but just for the sake of clarity I think you should understand that you are probably grossly compartmentalizing this type of Christian belief in assigning it almost exclusively to US Christians.

One of your own countryman, Reinhart Bonnke, (always a hero of mine), is personally responsible for millions upon millions of Africans believing in the same Christian belief as US fundamentalists. Reinhard himself is not politically active at all, but his beliefs in literal Creation, personal God, fall of man, original sin, etc., are exactly like US fundamentalists. He has been holding these crusades ever since I can remember, probably before I was born. I encourage you to take a look at some of the photos on his website which show some of the largest public meetings in the history of Africa. I am not exagerrating when I say that millions have come to Christ because of his efforts. He is a German born and raised evangelist.

REINHART BONNKE

It is true, however, that his ministry receives millions of dollars from US Christians though.

Dr. Yonnggi Cho has the largest, I repeat, the largest church in history in South Korea, his church has 760,000 members, all of them believing in the same literal interpretation of the Bible.
Dr. Cho's church

These two examples are just from my particular denomination, which happens to be charismatic. There might be more Baptists then any other Christian denomination.

The numbers of Christians in China are startling, and is reported to be slowly changing the culture of the nation from within. This one article estimates 30 million Chinese Protestants.
Chiinese Christians

I would also add Mark Swiger because I know him personally, and he is from my hometown, he has reached thousands upon thousands in India, I have seen the video's and photos, I have seen the lines of people, the numbers of committment cards. Swiger

This is just a casual perusal of a few ministries out there which are leading people to Christ and teaching followers about special creation, the fall of man, and a personal God, the list really does go on and on.

I think the Christians you are describing are probably Catholic diests, while it is true that there are a lot of them out there, especially in Europe and other so called civilized countries.

protestant vs catholic

It is evidenced that the poor and oppressed have always embraced Christianity as it is taught in the US, it only seems to be the most priveledged socialistic countries such as France and Germany which maintain a theistic, uninvolved God. That is ironic because all of these spoiled intellectuals who theorize about the nature and causes of suffering and death happen to be the furthest removed from it.

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