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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: jcl]
#105065
01/19/07 01:47
01/19/07 01:47
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
JibbSmart
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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Quote:
God's lack of presence is certainly something we can agree upon - welcome to Atheism.
this "lack of presence", if interpreted correctly, is not limited to atheism. loads of atheists seem to think that Christians believe God to be responsible for all natural disasters. natural disasters are obviously just a natural process, events caused by reactions inside or around the earth. no one's to blame for them. God would not be held responsible for the deaths in the Lisboa earthquake. His "lack of presence" is merely His choice not to intervene. that was part of the condition of humanity's freewill and knowledge of good and evil, which we may not choose individually, but something i'm sure we would all choose under the same circumstances as Adam and Eve.
i dont know much about the Old Testament -- i focus on the New Testament because it replaces all laws from the Old, but i guess it's probably worth reading because many accusations against God are to do with the Old Testament. from stories i've heard, those who were killed commited huge sins against God, or were specifically instructed not to do certain things at pain of death (eg, touching the Arc of the Covenant). mass killings were of people who were firmly in the wrong religion, basically punishable by eternal damnation anyway, and all without significant enough Jewish influence to be saved except by divine intervention. often these killings would be preceeded by massive signs or miracles foretold by prophets, basically divine intervention, in an effort to turn those people towards God.
im no expert on the Old Testament, so i can't say there are no examples that wouldnt fall under what i've described above. someone who knows more about the Old Testament may be able to say more, or maybe already has!
sorry if i've missed something, i dont have time to read however many posts there are in this thread.
julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: lostclimate]
#105067
01/19/07 10:28
01/19/07 10:28
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
OP
Chief Engineer
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OP
Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
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Yes, lack of God's presence is not necessarily atheism. There are many Christians - maybe the majority? - who also believe that God is not physically present, but exists only in our mind. However in primitive tribal religions and in fundamentalism, normally their God decides whether an earthquake physically happens or not. I don't think there is much difference in whether he decides this by act or by omission. God killed people for many reasons in the Old testament, not necessarily for committing huge sins. It depended on his mood. According to the bible, if he was in a bad mood he killed hundreds just for offering him using the wrong incense, or just to prove that he can do it. http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.htmlQuote:
those books... they are lists... of all the illegal things and ungodly things everyone in that room did, and it would be something like the whole, i should have done worse to humanity, it deserves it
Hmm, I have the impression that such "lists of ungodly things" would not help God to get acquitted. He needs something stronger for the defense. Do not forget that the ICC is used to judge monstrous war criminals. "They deserved it" is the usual motivation for mass murder, but won't do for legal defense.
Besides, its quite a huge stack of books - can it be that the people in the court room have done so many ungodly things?
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: PHeMoX]
#105069
01/19/07 23:52
01/19/07 23:52
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Quote:
If God is justice, then his reasoning is strange and full of illogic ... What 'good' is a God that can't stop evil?
Again dont confuse justice and mercy
I quote from the Genesis
"Cursed be the ground because of you! ...
By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, Until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return."
It is evident that "death" was a consequence of the original sin
Adam and Eve were not supposed to die before committing the original sin
If so
What's the difference between an earthquake and an heartattack ?
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: AlbertoT]
#105072
01/20/07 16:24
01/20/07 16:24
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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By lack of God's presence, I wasn't speaking of any physical presence in a strict sense. Its a lack of fellowship in the light of something like a lord-vassal relationship.
Imagine for a moment that a vassal misuses the land their given, so the lord who normally upholds the land and keeps things in order ceases to uphold the land in their entire capacity. In the meanwhile now, the vassal has to deal with the things they never had to worry about before. Things like wild animals attacking livestock....or something. The vassal can shake their fist at the lord all they want, but they knew what the consequences would be. They were given responsibility and they fudged up. I would love to see that vassal take the lord to court.
Some might object to this comparison on the grounds that legally, we don't work this way as humans anymore. If you use an ounce of imagination, I'm sure you can come up with an equally valid modern comparison.
I won't bother, since in my experience most committed atheists are unwilling to even play along on matters such as these. Its a waste of time.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#105073
01/20/07 17:11
01/20/07 17:11
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Well actually the comparison makes sense to me, as long as you assume God exists and there is such a relationship between us and him. Needless to say I don't believe in such a relationship, but the comparison makes sense nonetheless. It's a bit like the previous mentioned argument 'if God granted us life he may as well take it away from us at some point'. Quote:
The point is that " death " is a direct consequence of the original sin
This is clearly written in the bible
I'm sorry, but in my opinion that doesn't justifies taking a life in specific ways other than dead through normal aging. Mortality was the punishment, not 'dead by earthquake' or 'dead by cancer'. Why speed up the process, that's making the punishment even stronger. God is a discriminating being, since all we are is decendants of Adam, still we get punished even harder than Adam himself (all according to the christian believe off course).
Quote:
Do all people die because of age ?
Is lifespan exactly the same for all human beings ?
Do all people suffer the same pains before dying ?
I dont think so
That's exactly my point. I was talking about the illogic and unfairness of exactly this and you replied with a comment about the original sin. I don't understand why WE should receive the same punishment for something we didn't do! It was Adam, right? Well, why did God punish Eve too? Why did he punish us by making us mortal? It's not fair and it's based on illogic. That was my point. 
Cheers
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