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Will Vista wreck Indie Games? #107386
01/18/07 12:17
01/18/07 12:17
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline OP
Serious User
JetpackMonkey  Offline OP
Serious User

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
Many independent developers and individuals involved in the casual/indie publishing scene are very distressed about Vista's game explorer, which requires expensive ESRB and other criteria.. some are saying this could seriously hamper the success of independent games. Read the complete article-- what do you think? I find the situation uncomfortable-- but also do not understand if one -must- go through the games explorer..

Here's an article which briefly describes the problem:
Quote:

All this comes out in a GameDaily Biz story which interviews numerous fretful developers in casual/indy games, those low budget, low cost titles generally created for a non-gamer audience. The thing is, since most of them do operate on a slim budget, paying to have their games reviewed by the ESRB (who charge $2000-3000 for the privilege) just so they can make Vista’s rating requirement is a steep investment.

“It’s unfortunately a mercenary way of doing things,” a Microsoft executive tells GameDaily, explaining why indy/casual developers are receiving less support. “Certainly we want Blizzard’s ‘World Of Warcraft’ to work flawlessly on day one of Vista because 8 million tech support calls would be a very bad thing. The casual developers don’t sell quite as many.”

The thing is, in aggregate, casual/indy/low budget games do sell well, as this top 100 list can attest. One classic, Diner Dash, has sold a million units, while Popcap’s Bejeweled has been played by an estimated 75 million people. Though most casual games (like their big budget counterparts) don’t reach those heights, charging a high toll to enter Vista will definitely help keep them down.

The result (unless Microsoft implements a quick workaround) means Vista likely won’t be featuring the next big indy hit any time soon. Instead, we’ll probably see small time developers move their products to Flash and other Web-based platforms— and away from Windows.

This isn’t to say developers of high-profile PC games are happy with Vista either, at least judging by a man associated with a game in the platform’s top twenty. “Microsoft has so many problems with Vista,” Gabe Newell grouses to Game Informer magazine. Newell is co-founder and managing director of Valve Studios, creator of the blockbuster Half-Life games. “I wish they were focusing more on the thing that runs on hundreds of millions of PCs rather than six million proprietary clients… [R]ight now,” he adds, “I’d go with a Macintosh as being a better solution for most consumers than a Vista-based PC.”




Read the full article here:
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14952

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: JetpackMonkey] #107387
01/18/07 15:31
01/18/07 15:31
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
Senior Expert
HeelX  Offline
Senior Expert
H

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
I dont understand... a game is basically a piece of software. So, when you develop a game, why should it meet special requirements by Microsoft? It isnt a console and maybe my users play my game on winXP or so. If I would develop for a console I have full understanding for this, but not for a PC.

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: JetpackMonkey] #107388
01/18/07 15:32
01/18/07 15:32
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,011
South Africa
capanno Offline
Serious User
capanno  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,011
South Africa
Ba$tards. They really are a bunch of retarded monkeys there at MS. I thought the government here was stupid.

edit: what could be the reason for this decision?

Last edited by Capanno; 01/18/07 15:33.
Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: capanno] #107389
01/18/07 15:50
01/18/07 15:50
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
They can do such things, because of their monopoly.

It is so obvious, I don't know why the courts are so powerless to stop their miss-use of the position on the markets.

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: Pappenheimer] #107390
01/18/07 16:11
01/18/07 16:11
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline OP
Serious User
JetpackMonkey  Offline OP
Serious User

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
I really don't understand, though, like HeelX said-- games are software-- I don't see how, mechanically, Vista could somehow automagically determine what is a game, and what isnt. I guess what this means, maybe, is that indie games simply go unlisted in the games explorer? But you could have them installed as a normal program just like now? I mean, just like you can download and install winrar or something, I don't see why you couldn't just do the same thing with games. I guess the problem is they won't let us get into the games explorer?

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: JetpackMonkey] #107391
01/18/07 16:18
01/18/07 16:18
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
A
A.Russell Offline
Expert
A.Russell  Offline
Expert
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
From The Game Definition File (GDF) schema:

Quote:


Ratings (elements with sub-elements that contain guids, optional)....Multiple ratings are allowed, from multiple rating systems. Each rating can optionally have one or more content descriptors that are associated with that rating. Ratings, rating systems, and descriptors are guids that are defined in ratings.dll.





So no, you don't need an ESRB rating. In fact you don't need a rating at all. A bit of pre-release hysteria I think. I I think it is a good idea, because an administrator can set accounts so they won't allow access to content if it is inappropriete for the user -great for concerned mums. Some rating systems are free, and they are all only guidelines, since as everyone on this forum knows, people's idea of what is offensive can be very different.

GDF Schema: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms687239.aspx

Getting Started with the Game Explorer (everyone with a shareware title should read): http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms687240.aspx




Jetpack: Where did you get the Docomo puppet?


Last edited by A.Russell; 01/18/07 16:20.
Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: JetpackMonkey] #107392
01/18/07 16:48
01/18/07 16:48
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Sweden
tindust Offline
Senior Member
tindust  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Sweden
First I thought the same thing: Why??? and How??? Then it struck me ... Of Course!! ... It's Brilliant!!
... in kind of an evil way!

They are trying to Consolize the PC market!! Since there are vastly larger number of PC's than consoles, it would be a sure road to infinite revenues, a sort of Holy Grail of Monopoly. It is truly a way to reign in and corrall the Wild and Free Spirited Indie Community. A sort of Domestication of all of the Worlds Creative Indie Minds. This is only the first step, mark my word. Eventually it will lead to that ALL game developers PC or not, onlinebased or not, will be led by the "pay here for your license" Gate owned and operated by no less than ... yes you are correct!! ... Bill Gates.

And How? Well, think about it. There are a number of software features that are uniquely found in game programs: realtime render engine, DirectX and D3D functionality, instant interactivity particularly with joystick & other controllers, etc.etc. It is probably already now quit simple to determine if a program is a game or not.

We shall all be in chains whether we want it or not, at least that's what it seems like. Tell me I'm wrong someone!
Please!

not so cheers
tindust

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: tindust] #107393
01/18/07 16:57
01/18/07 16:57
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
A
A.Russell Offline
Expert
A.Russell  Offline
Expert
A

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan

Yes tindust, you don't even need to use the Game Explorer feature if you don't want to. Your XP games that you have now should run without being included in the Explorer. I thnk it's in the developers own best interest to include their games so that it is easy for Vista users to find and play them.

Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: A.Russell] #107394
01/18/07 17:41
01/18/07 17:41
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
Senior Expert
HeelX  Offline
Senior Expert
H

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
When you develop for other restricted platform like for the Wii, PS2/3 and the xbox/360 you have to fulfill special quality requirements to guarantee that the game's quality is superior as it has to be for console titles. So, from a professional POV this decision is good when you widen your horizon. You are forced to make a quality product. The smaller guys will say "no! this costs way too much and we cant afford it" but I guess there is always a way (I know this from my own exerience related to crunchtime QA). When you fulfill these requirements your quality product will give you a good reputation: by your customers, your competitors, and superior institutions (imagine you publish 2 or 3 titles under these requirements and one day some license holder asks you to develop for him a console game). You will forget all about this discussion.

This way is realistic and the only thing you need is contacts and cleverness to get on it. Even if you are a indie team with a good title in your back there will be only small obstacles to break through. If your answer to this with "NO!" there are other reasons which are hidden by conjured excuses.

After some clarfification I like this invention a lot. And: you cannot call Bill and his mates "bastards".. I think the argument of XNA will beat this discussion!

Last edited by HeelX; 01/18/07 17:43.
Re: Will Vista wreck Indie Games? [Re: HeelX] #107395
01/18/07 18:37
01/18/07 18:37
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 523
Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
Paul_L_Ming Offline
User
Paul_L_Ming  Offline
User

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 523
Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada


^_^

"We've got a blind date with destiny...and it looks like she's ordered the lobster."

-- The Shoveler

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