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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: AlbertoT]
#117410
03/17/07 11:08
03/17/07 11:08
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
A.Russell
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,427
Japan
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Well, PissedOffGuy, why don't you stop complaining about where you live and your neighbors and go back to Iraq? It sounds like you could try to be a better neighbour yourself.
To try to get back on topic. People who take a literal view of the Bible, the Koran or any other mythology are peasants, pure and simple. Technology changes much more quickly than people, and peasants are still very much a part of society. The muselmen who crap and pee all over toilets to face Mecca, the christians who advocate persecuting or even killing abortion doctors and black people. The brain-dead who send television evangelists their money. They are all modern day peasants, just as superstitious and easily lead as in the dark ages.
The bible is very interesting if you look past the superstitious nonsense and try to decipher the history, law and social structure of the ancient civilisation that it came from. This is some of the world's earliest writing, and it gives some insight as to how these people lived.
One story that I particularly like is the Tower of Babel. It is squeezed in between the story of Noah and The Call of Abraham as an explanation of how suddenly everyone, all decendents of one man, speaks different languages.
The tower itself was most likely based on a real building, a seven tier ziggurat in Babylon with a temple to Marduk at the top. It was called Etemenanki, "House of the Foundation of Heaven on Earth." The temple was considered the axis of heaven and earth, the steps were the proverbial stairway to heaven.
The Hebrews didn't like the Babylonians, hence they were the bad guys in their stories, though their mythology is obviously derived from them. In this story, the mathematicians in Babylon were so conceated as to think they could surpas God's authority and build their own tower to heaven. God came down, and saw they really could do it, and therefore no longer need him, muddled up their language.
The building was in existence before writing and survived until the time of Alexander the Great. Today it is a big square hole in the ground without even a road for tourists to go and see it.
To think that this story is true is just silly, but I would be entertained to hear the christians' on the forum give a literal explanation. Please tell me how, with enough people speaking the same language, I can build a tower to heaven in my carpark (I don't have a garden, I live in an apartment, so the carpark will have to do).
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#117412
03/17/07 12:29
03/17/07 12:29
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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Quote:
To think that this story is true is just silly, but I would be entertained to hear the christians' on the forum give a literal explanation. Please tell me how, with enough people speaking the same language, I can build a tower to heaven in my carpark (I don't have a garden, I live in an apartment, so the carpark will have to do).
They cant build a tower to heaven, you are absolutely correct. However, the Bible never says that they could, it only says that they thought they could. There is a big difference.
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And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
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God came down, and saw they really could do it, and therefore no longer need him, muddled up their language.
No, God did not say that he saw they could really do it. He said that 'nothing would be restrained from them'
If the whole world right now was united in language and purpose it would be correct to say that 'nothing could be restrained from us'
God did not scatter them because of the tower, he scattered them because of their unity. And it is the precise reason why mankind has never been united since.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: PissedOffGuy]
#117414
03/17/07 13:55
03/17/07 13:55
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
shorty_2007
Guest
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Guest
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
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Well PO'ed guy, sounds like you have major issues. Why do you hate everyone for something that happened a few hundred years ago? And why should anyone have to admit to anything so that you will forgive and forget? And just for the record I am speaking for myself and NOONE else on this forum. Frankly I think your just in a bad mood and have no idea what it is you really want to vent about. You have jumped and skipped to everything under the sun, you have made threats to people on here that you wont follow through with. If this conversation pisses you off that bad then why are you posting on it? Your only making yourself look like an idiot. And at your little comment about walking on a street that you KNOW dead witches are buried under..,have you seen the dead witches with your own eyes? Or is that a rumor that got started where you live. If we believed everything thing that was told to us we would be idiots. No actually in that case I would be rich for the simple fact of finding that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. How corney does that sound? As far as the laws, I dont think anyone posting on this site makes any laws as far as what this country does. We only vote for people who make the laws. Some things in life just suck and that happens to be one of them. We all disagree to some extent about what laws are right and wrong. Oh well. Sometimes you just have to get over it. I think you should come off at these guys with a totally different attitude. They have done nothing wrong to you. And if you dont like something that they have said, maybe you should turn right back aournd and read your OWN post.  Stop telling people you are gonna shove the smilies up their a$$. I am not sure what you claim to be in life, but I can assure you by the way you talk and go on, its not right. Whatever your problem is stop taking it out on these guys because they are not your problem.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#117415
03/17/07 14:44
03/17/07 14:44
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Which means what exactly? How many massive battles do we find a lot of evidence for, that took place so long ago?
Plenty, just search the web instead of asking me that question. You will however notice that a lot of battles are overexagerated in scriptures talking about them.
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How do you know we would find chariot wheels for each and every chariot that was submerged, exactly? I'm actually surprised that we even have as much as we do, and though I wouldn't rush to assume its origin, I'd love to hear you explain what a chariot wheel a handful of chariot wheels are doing in the middle of the sea.
Okey, firstly considered the state of what has been found and the environment there's absolutely no doubt that íf there would have been more chariot wheels that we would have found more, it's a matter of conservation. Secondly, some wheels in the middle of the ocean doesn't necessarily mean anything, they could have been washed away from the shore during a storm or whatever more original ways there can be to end up somewhere else. Nor where they found in the exact middle there by the way. One thing people always have assumed is that the waterlevels where much lower and thus parts of what's water now was dry back then, there's geological evidence to support this. And nope, no evidence for water crashing down and washing away soil with huge forces.
In the end I don't really understand your question since we also find fishfossils practically on top of mountains, no matter how strange or funny there's always a logical explanation.
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Well PO'ed guy, sounds like you have major issues. Why do you hate everyone for something that happened a few hundred years ago? And why should anyone have to admit to anything so that you will forgive and forget? And just for the record I am speaking for myself and NOONE else on this forum. Frankly I think your just in a bad mood and have no idea what it is you really want to vent about.
Didn't he just explain why he's so frustrated????? He simply point to the source of his current problems of being part of a minority among religious people. Seems like a fair thing to talk about, although yes he's frustrated alright, but who wouldn't if you freedom is limited??
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Thats a easy one. I'll give you the answer just as soon as I figure out the technique used to speak and make light. lol :-) Some things we cannot explain.
The way we talk is actually easy, we use sound for that and produce this by using our vocal cords. We use our muscles to tension our vocal cords and because air flows by we are able to produce a lot of different sounds. Specific sounds in specific sequences have specific meanings and after all this has evolved into more complex language, it has become vital to be able to talk.
We can make light by burning a fire, switching on a lightbulb, or hey, if it's light oustide just by opening a curtain  , all perfectly explainable.
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Keep in mind the Bible was written by man.
Yes, better think about that deeply, since there's no way a God could have been involved even íf he existed. 
Cheers
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: PHeMoX]
#117417
03/17/07 15:15
03/17/07 15:15
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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The way we talk is actually easy, we use sound for that and produce this by using our vocal cords. We use our muscles to tension our vocal cords and because air flows by we are able to produce a lot of different sounds. Specific sounds in specific sequences have specific meanings and after all this has evolved into more complex language, it has become vital to be able to talk.
We can make light by burning a fire, switching on a lightbulb, or hey, if it's light oustide just by opening a curtain , all perfectly explainable.
lol Cute.. now explain how God spoke and things appeared. BTW, did you go back to Antiquities yet? I know, I know.. I'll say it for you... "Yes Kinji, your right. Jesus is mentioned in Aniquities." lol
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Yes, better think about that deeply, since there's no way a God could have been involved even íf he existed.
With God all things are possible.
For the record: Its almost impossible to stick to the story in this hotel. O_O
Last edited by Kinji_2007; 03/17/07 15:18.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#117418
03/17/07 16:11
03/17/07 16:11
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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@ AlbertoT
Check out keyword "Tacitus". Nero tortured Christians after the fire.
That's why I said ..not on extensive basis
Students at school are taught that the first Christians were a bunch of heros who risked their life for their faith
This is simply not true
In the ancient Rome all religions were authorized
Fanatism came later
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: AlbertoT]
#117419
03/17/07 16:18
03/17/07 16:18
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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Quote:
Students at school are taught that the first Christians were a bunch of heros who risked their life for their faith
This is simply not true
The first Christians were mainly oppressed by the Jews. Paul himself being one of the cheif persecutors before his conversion...then of course kinji is right, the Romans persecuted us through various Ceasars, Nero and Caligula being some of the worst. CALIGULA's reign was 37-41 AD, NERO's reign was 54-68.
However, just to set the record straight, some of the "first Christians" were martyred by these regimes so people like Peter and John were part of that suffering. Im interested in this subject if anyone wants to explore it further.
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