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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: NITRO777]
#117441
03/18/07 12:18
03/18/07 12:18
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
It doesnt matter that we cant 'prove' such experiences, you already have millions of people saying they have had them. That in itself is proof enough.
Nope, that's not evidence, those are mere statistics. I agree that it makes some sense to assume that not millions of people make things up. But that's about the only thing that can be said about it.
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So how can you claim to know what is impossible or possible?
I meant not necesarrily impossible, merely something that is/was/I thought to be 'nearly impossible'. It's a word thing anyways, since if something impossible happens, then it wasn't impossible, but possible instead. 
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people much more stubborn than you becoming born again Christians and becoming the new driver of the church bus.
I guess I'm not lost yet then hehehe.  
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Wow.. just think: If I keep talking about religion I wont have any stars left. lol To funny.
I'm going to rate you 5 stars, because I like these debates. But I do wonder who really cares about the stars anyways? In a way it's discriminating to give people less stars purely based upon some opinions, not quite fair.
Cheers
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: PHeMoX]
#117442
03/18/07 12:31
03/18/07 12:31
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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Quote:
I'm going to rate you 5 stars, because I like these debates. But I do wonder who really cares about the stars anyways? In a way it's discriminating to give people less stars purely based upon some opinions, not quite fair
I agree. lol The rating system is far to over-rated. :-) Maybe in Hilberts Hotel we can just start considering less stars better? If this is the case then NITRO is ahead of me right now and I need to find some toes to step on to advance to the next level. heh j/king It is fairly shallow minded to rate someone based on their opinions though.
Since I am here reading.. give me your thoughts on the other instances that mention Jesus. Like Tacitus.
Do you think that the list (page 8 of this topic) is enough to prove that Jesus did exist? Not proving that He was the Son of God.. just that he existed?
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#117443
03/18/07 12:56
03/18/07 12:56
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
OP
Chief Engineer
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OP
Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
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Quote:
Do you think that the list (page 8 of this topic) is enough to prove that Jesus did exist? Not proving that He was the Son of God.. just that he existed?
For proving that he really existed you'd need to find pre-Christian sources that mention him - sources from the time before Paulus founded Christianity about 50 AC. All later sources obviously refer to the Jesus image that Paulus based his religion upon. So we have no hard evidence for Jesus' existence.
However, it is very likely that he existed. The circumstances of his life, the miracles he did etc. were quite common in Palestina at that time. Many rabbis walked that country with small groups of followers, doing miracles. Therefore Paulus had no motive to make up such a person. Jesus really existed and most of his teachings were probably authentic. Only being the Messiah or the son of God was likely not claimed by himself, but invented by Paulus.
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#117444
03/18/07 13:02
03/18/07 13:02
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
I agree. lol The rating system is far to over-rated. :-) Maybe in Hilberts Hotel we can just start considering less stars better? If this is the case then NITRO is ahead of me right now and I need to find some toes to step on to advance to the next level.
Lol, for a few minutes you had 4 stars again though, seems you are back on 3 again. Well, at least I tried.
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Do you think that the list (page 8 of this topic) is enough to prove that Jesus did exist? Not proving that He was the Son of God.. just that he existed?
Would it be enough to prove it? No. It may indeed indicate that á person called Jesus lived, because his name was mentioned, unfortunately all sources are not from the same date as when the biblical Jesus lived. The name Jesus was far to common back then to simply base his existence upon just a name, you'd need more contextual information and you'd need a source from when he was still alive.
"Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time." There's no real clear link to the 'biblical jesus', so unfortunately it's not proving much.
Considered what the biblical Jesus supposedly did, historians wouldn't have ignored him for sure...
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Only being the Messiah or the son of God was likely not claimed by himself, but invented by Paulus.
I'm not going to claim this is infact what has happened, but there are people who claim there has been a voting at some point and they simply decided Jesus should be called 'Son of God' from then on... this according to those happened quite a long time after Jesus died.
Cheers
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: PHeMoX]
#117445
03/18/07 20:27
03/18/07 20:27
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
JibbSmart
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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in reply to Kinji_2007, i'm afraid i cannot explain anything differently or better  we simply believe (in regards to being saved) that once you have been saved, you are... uhm... saved. maybe your friends believe something a bit different to i -- i have seen a friend of mine fall away from Christianity, which i guess means you aren't saved forever if you are saved once, but she grew up in a Christian family and maybe never made that conscious decision to be a Christian before. i misunderstood you and thought you meant that after giving our lives to God, us Baptists believed you had to get baptized, and you were saying that we don't get the part where once you get saved you're always saved (which i took to mean once you are saved, you don't have to do any other formal actions to make sure you are saved). sorry mate i dont know anything that would clear anything up about Baptist Christians for you. julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#117447
03/19/07 03:33
03/19/07 03:33
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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This discussion has exploded beyond my desire to contribute to it. I didn't have anything worthwhile to add anyway. Quote:
The circumstances of his life, the miracles he did etc. were quite common in Palestina at that time. Many rabbis walked that country with small groups of followers, doing miracles.
But I am curious about this. Do you, by chance, have any sources on this because this is an interesting topic for me. I always hear vague references to other folks who claimed to be the messiah, and now this. I'm curious as to the details, myself. It would be info to know. Thanks.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#117448
03/19/07 07:14
03/19/07 07:14
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
JibbSmart
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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@Kinji_2007: i haven't heard claims like that before  . from my own beliefs and my recent research into Baptists (which simply confirmed my own thoughts) the "specifications" of Baptist Christianity are that baptism at birth is frowned upon because it lacks free-will, baptism itself is practiced once in someone's life whenever they choose as long as they understand the decision, but as a symbol for their faith and not as a requirement for salvation, and the Lord's Supper is also practiced but as a symbol. wikipedia has quite a good explanation, i think. this "once saved always saved thing" is new to me and isn't a Baptist-specific thing -- you'll probably find people who believe that in any denomination. julz PS: have some stars
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: Bible apologetics
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#117449
03/19/07 10:59
03/19/07 10:59
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
OP
Chief Engineer
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OP
Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
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Quote:
Do you, by chance, have any sources on this because this is an interesting topic for me. I always hear vague references to other folks who claimed to be the messiah, and now this. I'm curious as to the details, myself. It would be info to know. Thanks.
I don't think that any of them claimed to be the messiah. That would have been a blasphemy.
There were about 40 major jewish sects in palestine at that time, plus a lot more small groups lead by charismatic rabbis. The three most popular were Theudas the magician, John the baptist, and Stephen of Jerusalem, every one with hundreds of followers. As to my knowledge all met the same violent death as Jesus. Jesus himself was probably a follower of John before he gathered his own small group. But he never reached the popularity of his more famous colleagues, and without Paulus he would have long been forgotten. I don't have an online source at the moment, but I think if you search for those three names you'll find more information. I got most of the info from a book about the Qumran scrolls that also covers the situation in first century palestine.
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