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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Ran Man]
#122089
04/11/07 22:42
04/11/07 22:42
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Quote:
In fact, Western Civilization has been mostly about getting away from the draconian laws of the Tanakh (aka "Old Testament"). And, yes, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust, the Thirty Years' War, the Inquisition, the witch trials, the heresy trials, and the Dark Ages to see how vicious Christian fundamentalists can be. Christianity probably set back Western Civilization by at least 1500 years (think Bruno, Copernicus and Galileo for starters). And the current ignorant assaults on the teaching of evolution show just how treacherous Christian fundamentalists can be!
Its amazing to see so much historical misrepresentation in one paragraph. Its nearly staggering, to overexaggerate a bit.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#122091
04/11/07 23:16
04/11/07 23:16
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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Quote:
It is true however that Jesus taught what is essentially non-violence (turn the other cheek) and acceptance of temporal political oppression in favor of the rewards of heaven(render unto Caesar)..
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While I dont disagree with your main point, what the hell does the holocuast have to do with fundemantalist Christians?.. the Nazis werent fundies or even really Christian..
What is up with Mr. Aufderheide? It almost seems like he is softening up with such Christian sympathetic statements? 
You are correct. Jesus was a pacifist, and he would probably disagree with a lot of current fundamentalist Christians who advocate war. I have done a lot of thinking about this in my life, I am coming to the conclusion that Jesus would probably teach current Christians to stay_out_of_politics. I mean, I was pissed with all fundamentalist Muslims after 911 for years, but I was pissed off as an American, NOT as a Christian.
However on the other side I think that God is very much in control of what is happening on the global scale these days and that the whole mid-east conflict is coming closer to a head for some apolcalyptic finale.
Because Jesus preached the apocalypse and hell does that mean He was not a pacifist? 1)He was a pacifist but He prophesied judgement, war and famine not by his own hand,...but by the very hand of Justice. The message of Jesus was to help people escape from the judgement He prophesied, not nessesarily the judgement He caused. Its an important distinction.
And about the holocaust, while everyone concentrates an the 6 million Jews that were killed people seem to forget the millions of Christians killed
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#122092
04/11/07 23:54
04/11/07 23:54
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,205
Greece
LarryLaffer
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,205
Greece
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Quote:
I'm glad you don't want to kill, but maybe you should, because the koran says to do it.
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"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"
( Koran 8:39 )
Now that word - UNTIL - is a time frame. Is the world muslim now? No, it is not, so you are supposed to kill and make war until that happens.
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
So, what's your point?
I'm not claiming I've read the bible. This is the first results I got from searching google for "bible promotes violence". Now I'm sure, these were all probably taken out of context, or they could probably mean something less literal, but couldn't it be the same case for the Koran?
I normally don't get in the middle of religious conversations, but Hellcrypt is a friend of mine and I find your behavior towards him to be provoking, prejudiced, and quite honestly, lame. Not everyone shares the same opinions you do, and you shouldn't mock his religion, regardless if he's practising it or not. How would you feel if i'd mock christianity instead by... say i don't know... doing jesus dress up maybe?
I don't want to judge you RanMan because i don't know you, but your post above doesn't remind me any of Jesus teachings at all. I don't want to think that you're representing a model behavior of your religion, or i'm going to lose any respect I have for Christian people altogether.
You don't have to, but I think you owe Hellcrypt an apology
Yours,
Aris
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: LarryLaffer]
#122093
04/12/07 00:43
04/12/07 00:43
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
OP
Member
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OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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Besides the six doctrines to be believed, there are five duties to be performed: 1. Statement of belief: To become a Muslim, a person must publicly repeat the Shahadah: “There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is the prophet of Allah.” 2. Prayers: This ritual must be performed five times a day. The Muslim must kneel and bow in the direction of the holy city, Mecca. 3. Alms: Muslim law today requires the believer to give one-fortieth of his income. This offering goes to widows, orphans, the sick and other unfortunates. 4. Ramadan: The ninth month of the Muslim lunar year is called Ramadan. It is the highest of holy seasons. Muslims are required to fast for the entire month, but only during daylight hours. As soon as the sun sets, the feasting begins. During Ramadan, the believer must not commit any unworthy act. If he does, his fasting is meaningless. 5. Pilgrimage to Mecca: This is called the Hajj and must be performed at least once in a Muslim’s lifetime. However, if the pilgrimage is too difficult or dangerous for the believer, he can send someone in his place. Though not “officially” defined along with the five duties are two additional duties of every Muslim. 6. Jihad, or holy war. When any Muslim anywhere declares a jihad, all Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to join the jihad. Since Osama bin Laden declared a jihad against the United States, all Muslims everywhere, including all American citizens who are Muslims, are duty bound to participate in the jihad against America. 7. Shahada. To seek death for Allah. Palestinian leaders are now brainwashing children as young as 12 or 13 years old to actively seek to die as Shaheedin (martyrs) for Allah in the jihad against Israel. They are taught that not only is Shahada their duty, it is something sweet to be pursued. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority actively praise these young Shaheedin and hold them up as an example to be followed by all Palestinian children. 6 and 7 is a bit extreme. Just thought this was a interesting read. VIDEO
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#122094
04/12/07 01:32
04/12/07 01:32
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
Its amazing to see so much historical misrepresentation in one paragraph. Its nearly staggering, to overexaggerate a bit.
"Misrepresentation" as in how? You say the inquisition wasn't Christian or what? Feel free to open a new thread for this btw as this will inevitably go off topic in the current thread.
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Though not “officially” defined along with the five duties are two additional duties of every Muslim.
6. Jihad, or holy war. When any Muslim anywhere declares a jihad, all Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to join the jihad. Since Osama bin Laden declared a jihad against the United States, all Muslims everywhere, including all American citizens who are Muslims, are duty bound to participate in the jihad against America.
7. Shahada. To seek death for Allah. Palestinian leaders are now brainwashing children as young as 12 or 13 years old to actively seek to die as Shaheedin (martyrs) for Allah in the jihad against Israel. They are taught that not only is Shahada their duty, it is something sweet to be pursued. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority actively praise these young Shaheedin and hold them up as an example to be followed by all Palestinian children.
They are not official and yet everybody seems to always add them 'as if they are'. (no attack towards you kinji, you said they are unofficial).
Cheers
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#122097
04/12/07 08:45
04/12/07 08:45
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,982
Frankfurt
jcl
Chief Engineer
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Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,982
Frankfurt
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Quote:
what the hell does the holocuast have to do with fundemantalist Christians?.. the Nazis werent fundies or even really Christian..
Indeed Nazi ideology was not based on Christianity. Hitler was deeply religious, but not in a Christian way. He believed in a concept he called "providence".
Still, Christian traditions have a lot to do with the holocaust. The whole concept of Jews being a wicked people who do not deserve to live goes back to the 11th century, the age of the crusades. The Second crusade failed to accomplish its goals, and as a sort of compensation killed all Jews in the cities on their way back. Since then, jewish pogroms and massacres regularly occured in most Christian cities. The only countries where jews could live in peace were countries under Islamic rule.
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#122098
04/12/07 09:17
04/12/07 09:17
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
I understand what you mean, but you can't ignore they were people like you and me calling themselves 'Christians'. One way or the other, it's about their ideology driving them to act.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to get across. You'll find many nutcases claiming to be Christian, and all sorts of things, all the time throughout history. It's obvious that real Christians could have absolutely no part in the cause of the holocaust as Jesus is Jewish.
Does this mean your not a Christian if you are anti-semantic? Possibly. However, racism is one of many problems in the world, alongside jealousy, perversion, violence, ect. For some people it just pops up now and then, a somewhat recurring problem in their lives but in truth their just being spontaneous with it, and usually try to act better. For others, they like to act on it, and always have a hardened heart full of hatred towards certain peoples. You'd think this latter group would have a hard time calling themselves Christian? Not always, unfortunately, but if you understand anything about the new Testament and the such, you'll be able to distinguish between people who "claim" and people who are.
I really don't have any facts on the actings of Islam, as I never read the Koran top to bottom, and am not going to base my facts off of what others say. But what I can say is that usually a religion or ideology is measured on what it produces. In Canada, those who I know that are Muslim are nice people, usually keep to themselves, and don't create no problems(usually less than those who aren't as Muslims they don't drink alchohol, and refrain from partying).
But what troubles me is all this violence around the world "in the name of Islam". I believe Matt's right and oppression is probably a cause in this as well, but perhaps there are some areas of the Koran that really are quite hard to translate. I see it this way because of the seemingly split Muslim community. It's almost as though there are Canada/U.S Muslims, and then the rest of the world Muslims.
In the end, this can worry some a bit, especially for those in my age group. If there was ever a large scale war from this(Iran + nukes mabye?), guess who would be conscripted? 
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