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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: zazang]
#124239
04/18/07 05:45
04/18/07 05:45
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
You seem to be respectful even when you do not agree, a good heart from first glance, strong minded.. even when a bit off. lol He deals with us all and we all have a calling, some more than others. I would have to say that you remind me of Paul.
Thank you.  Yeah, my respect is in fact for real, not just because I'm curious. I admit it's sometimes very tempting to stop being respectful. Often Christian people in my vicinity suddenly stop talking the moment I say I don't believe in God, nor Christ nor the Bible, but am interested in it anyways hehehe. They don't understand it's simply part of my 'knowledge hungriness'.
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It has no heart, lungs or brain, yet only has a consciousness.
Only a consciousness? Theoretically that's impossible, even if he was in the supernatural 'realm' and infinite. There are an infinite amount of thoughts, experiences and what more that God "should know" and not only that, storing thoughts can't be done in just thin air, it needs a physical storage place. Supernatural or not doesn't really matter, since even if God would be only a consciousness he has no means of communicating, nor doing things. We humans only understand events, sounds and perhaps telephatic messages. But even if God could do the latter, we can't tell if it's just our own thoughts or if it's God himself. So, basically my point is similar to that of Zazang, how do you know God is a spirit?
Cheers
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: PHeMoX]
#124240
04/18/07 11:29
04/18/07 11:29
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
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About demons: While I never experienced any of this, when you look at some of the crazy people in the world who do very crazy acts, you have to wonder if their possessed. I mean, the mothers drowning their kids in bathtubs, serial killers, ect. The thing about these cases is their usually normal people at the start, and physiologists don't have any idea what's wrong with them after/before the crime, so their put into mental institutes. Or maybe there child predators, with multiple repeat offenses. Somethings screwed up mentally, and they sure weren't born this way, yet they can't get rid of their very serious mental state. Some say that the ultimate cure for all these unexplained mental illnesses is Jesus. In real life experience, I have met a few people who said they have had encounters with demons/ghosts. The majority of the time it's people who are doing lots of drugs, very depressed, and have a pretty tough go at life(family problems, don't believe in anything, ect.). The minority were Christians, almost always born again in their late 20's or so, and they said it was during their worst time in life, usually not explaining the rest of their stories or what they did to deserve this. The thing about these people is once born again Christians, there usually the most jumpy in Churches, always preaching at the top of their lungs and the such even before taking the time to think what their saying over. I believe in good and evil, and I'm sure everyone has seen everything on either side or in-between. I believe there is indeed demons, and people can become possessed. I also believe most people will never see a demon or angel physically in their life, but cannot deny someone the right to say they have. Can I give you facts to back these beliefs? Of course not, it's just my interpretation of the bible and life; and it will probably change as I become older and hopefully wiser. 
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: William]
#124242
04/18/07 14:04
04/18/07 14:04
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
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Quote:
While I never experienced any of this, when you look at some of the crazy people in the world who do very crazy acts, you have to wonder if their possessed.
Insane people are simply insane, not possessed. Not every insane person actually becomes a serial-killer, some simply are crazy, their brains just 'don't tick right'. There's no reason to assume they are possessed, some even are good Christians too despite their craziness, so that would rule it out actually. I even know someone who apparently has the entire Bible content in his head and speaks out Biblical verses almost 24/7. Definitely crazy, but kinda strange if he would be possessed.
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The majority of the time it's people who are doing lots of drugs, very depressed, and have a pretty tough go at life
Lol, don't underestimate the effects of drugs, especially certain harddrugs, but even cannabis.
If you're very depressed that means your mental health is in a horrible condition. When people search for a reason why they are depressed, they'll often think it's not their own fault and eventhough their situation usually caused it, they often draw strange conclusions. Some find themselves in a equilibrium they think they can't break out of, I don't think Jesus is the cure, I think changing their situation is. If believing in Jesus changes their situation, all the better really, but it's definitely not the 'cure' per say for depressed people. I have to add one thing, religion tends to give hope to people, that's part of what depressed people really need, but they also need their situations to change (usually drastically).
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Or maybe there child predators, with multiple repeat offenses. Somethings screwed up mentally, and they sure weren't born this way, yet they can't get rid of their very serious mental state.
They are (at least partly) born like this actually. It's a bit like homosexuality, you don't become one because of your environment, nor does a pedophile become one because of his environment. You often hear pedophiles have had a terrible youth, but what about the billions of other people with terrible youths? Right, they don't all become pedophiles.
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The minority were Christians, almost always born again in their late 20's or so, and they said it was during their worst time in life, usually not explaining the rest of their stories or what they did to deserve this. The thing about these people is once born again Christians, there usually the most jumpy in Churches, always preaching at the top of their lungs and the such even before taking the time to think what their saying over.
Everybody deserves a second chance no question, but I don't believe in most of these 'born again' stories.
Cheers
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: PHeMoX]
#124243
04/18/07 14:38
04/18/07 14:38
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
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God is Spirit, because if He was not a Spirit, then we could see him, but also the bible says He is below: Quote:
John 4:24
God is spirit , and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25
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Lol, don't underestimate the effects of drugs, especially certain harddrugs, but even cannabis.
Hmmnn, yes LSD and drugs in the "Hallucunogenic" category, can only open up your spirit to the spirit beings all around you now.
Unfortunately, this is a BAD experience for lots of people, because demons are also here and they ain't typically nice folks.
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#124244
04/18/07 14:41
04/18/07 14:41
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 702
zazang
User
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User
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Posts: 702
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God is something that we couldnt possibly understand. Spriti or not.. He goes beyond that. Our wisdom.. even our wisest men are simply foolish to God. He is now and has always been. If I explained to you how long eternity is, could you grasp it? You cannot grasp the fullness of God and who He is just like you cannot grasp that there was no beginning of time. Try to imagine it.. do the math in your head. Now that we are talking about it.. I dont think that it is fair to say God is a Spirit. He created spirits.
I agree that there are things that we can never grasp with our logical brain
but why do you need the concept of God to explain all this ?..why dont u assume
that it was created without any creator ? and if you say that you need something to create others then who created God ?..back to square one 
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: Ran Man]
#124245
04/18/07 15:18
04/18/07 15:18
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
Hmmnn, yes LSD and drugs in the "Hallucunogenic" category, can only open up your spirit to the spirit beings all around you now.
Unfortunately, this is a BAD experience for lots of people, because demons are also here and they ain't typically nice folks.
Well, I never saw any spirits, just a lot of colors and a overly bright world around me spinning in a strange slow motion fashion eventhough I stood still. (I don't use drugs on a regular basis, but I did some of them once)
By the way, you are aware that the hallucinogenic world is far from reality and we simply poison our brains which causes this distorted and weird experience. It's not a gate to another dimension or something.
Cheers
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#124247
04/19/07 00:23
04/19/07 00:23
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
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Quote:
Exactly my point. You cannot comprehend that time has no limits. Your brain doesnt work that way. We can say "infinate" yet we cannot imagine it.
It's possible to comprehend, it's just that something without start or end seems unnatural to us since we are used to this dimension of time and off course wé ourselves are limited in time and space. Compared to infinity our lives are nothing, the time-span is ultra-mega-super-extremely (etc. etc.) close to completely non-existent actually, relative to infinity itself. To say it thus has little meaning to us or that we can't comprehend is a bit shortsighted. It's the difference between saying 'infinity is time/space or whatever is infinite that goes on forever' and saying 'infinity is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc.'. It's like the difference between "pi" and '3.14159265...'. We often try to measure something relative in absolutes, that's clearly ineffective when trying to comprehend infinity. "pi" is not 3.14159265, instead it's infinite thus the only correct way to indicate it is with the "pi" symbol. (disclaimer: as far as we know it's a infinite number, but for obvious practical reasons it wouldn't be clever to write it all down every time you use it in a calculation or whatever..)
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We cannot see how God has always been because we cannot get past the time part of it. To us there must be a beginning and end of everything because thats all we know.
Ok, I'll stop rambling. ;-) You cannot figure out God. None of us can but I do know He exists.
True, but as long as nothing indicates he exists and as long as there's no communication or whatever other form of interaction it's simply impossible to even start figuring out anything. You've got to understand that 'we' deal with this "idea of God" and don't share your faith in him or think to know he exists. Without any evidence it's simply impossible to say anything.
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Another way I look at it is like so: If you are right then me and you both have nothing to lose. Life ends and we poof and simply do not exist anymore.
This sounds horribly opportunistic to me, I really can't believe in something "just in case it turns out to be true". That simply doesn't feel right, nor does it make sense actually. If God really knows all, he'd send you to hell perhap just for that. Even if we assume he exists, we still know nothing about what will actually happen when the 'lights go out'. Nobody ever survived dying, you see?
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If a man chooses to not believe and lives a life full of sin, he is damned to hell. So this day the man starts to burn because of the hatred and many bad things in his life. Now imagine a solid steel ball. A very large one.. about the size of our planet. Shiny, perfectly round. One man sits on the very top of this ball. In his hand he has a feather. He is very slowly brushing the feather on the steel ball. So heres my thought.. the ball is the same size as the earth and the feather is slowly rubbed against one small spot beside the man. By the time it takes that man to brush a hole completely through the steel "planet" to the other side.. even then eternity would just be getting "started" for that man in hell.
Turn your stove on and let the burner get so hot that it turns a glowing red. Now place your finger tip to it and hold it there for 60 seconds. The pain would be unbelieveable. Imagine your whole body consumed in flames with no way to escape for all eternity.
I choose to believe. I serve God because I want to. The Bible is the greatest book ever written. Jesus Christ died for us. The commandments of God can only make your life better. If all of that is not a good enough reason to change your ways then the thought of hell should surly wake you up.
It's striking that you say the latter after explaining that you fear hell so much you'd believe in anything to not end up there. That's so opportunistic, you seem(! ) to not really believe, you just don't want to go to hell, those are two very different things. You don't believe because you think it's true, you simply fear being wrong so you'll believe "just in case".
That's about the biggest problem I have with religions, especially the ones that tell you you're going to pay for 'not believing'. It's the oldest trick in the psychological book to maintain control over groups of people. Make them afraid and make them an offer they can't refuse. Sounds very devilish to me actually,
Cheers
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Re: Christian Cafe'
[Re: PHeMoX]
#124248
04/19/07 01:13
04/19/07 01:13
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
OP
Member
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OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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Quote:
It's possible to comprehend, it's just that something without start or end seems unnatural to us since we are used to this dimension of time and off course wé ourselves are limited in time and space. Compared to infinity our lives are nothing, the time-span is ultra-mega-super-extremely (etc. etc.) close to completely non-existent actually, relative to infinity itself. To say it thus has little meaning to us or that we can't comprehend is a bit shortsighted. It's the difference between saying 'infinity is time/space or whatever is infinite that goes on forever' and saying 'infinity is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 etc.'. It's like the difference between "pi" and '3.14159265...'. We often try to measure something relative in absolutes, that's clearly ineffective when trying to comprehend infinity. "pi" is not 3.14159265, instead it's infinite thus the only correct way to indicate it is with the "pi" symbol. (disclaimer: as far as we know it's a infinite number, but for obvious practical reasons it wouldn't be clever to write it all down every time you use it in a calculation or whatever..)
I see you talking about it yet you misunderstand me. I mean to "see" it in your mind.. to understand eternity in a way that you can grasp how long it will last. Time never started and never ends.
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Without any evidence it's simply impossible to say anything.
Jesus Christ is latter proof. I dont want to debate here because you know my stand on Jesus. There is evidense and facts. ;-) In the OT they had their proof. Now we have ours.
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This sounds horribly opportunistic to me, I really can't believe in something "just in case it turns out to be true". That simply doesn't feel right, nor does it make sense actually. If God really knows all, he'd send you to hell perhap just for that. Even if we assume he exists, we still know nothing about what will actually happen when the 'lights go out'. Nobody ever survived dying, you see?
I told you to look at the facts. That takes away the opportunist part. If you base your faith on the facts then you have a foundation. Not that I expect you to understand. Your mind is not open to both sides. "just in case it turns out to be true" You didnt get my meaning at all. The facts that God exist are greater than that He doesnt. If fear drives you to find that out then it is good.
For the record. Fear of God will not get you to heaven. You must believe in Jesus Christ. Just so I am not misunderstood.
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That's so opportunistic, you seem(! ) to not really believe, you just don't want to go to hell, those are two very different things
Maybe I should have explained better? The story of hell or anyones story of hell would push someone to figure out if God exist. So in short, your belief isnt based on fear. You simply fear hell so you look deeper for answers.. even if that means that you stay atheist because you kind find enough facts.
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That's about the biggest problem I have with religions, especially the ones that tell you you're going to pay for 'not believing'. It's the oldest trick in the psychological book to maintain control over groups of people. Make them afraid and make them an offer they can't refuse. Sounds very devilish to me actually,
I agree with you and disagree at the same time. Impressed with my multitasking? lol Some churches use the scare tactic. And some churches tell you of hell because they are concerned for your soul. Are you able to judge them?
You have dubbed my comments as those of a opportunist. I dub yours as those of a closed minded person who is not capable of seeing the truth if Jesus Christ was to come down and shake your hand in the flesh. I like to chat about Christianity along with the rest of you obviously. A Christian based topic so quickly tries to turn debate. lol I will tell you this.. from me to any unbeliever. Judgement day will happen. God is real. Ignorance is not an excuse because we all know about God. (even though some choose not to believe, they still know about Him)
Last edited by Kinji_2007; 04/19/07 01:23.
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