@fastlane... shure the publisher does take a risk, but look. they can see and test a finished game like mine for example before! they publish it. they should have enough knowledge to not license a crap game from me. that is the whole point.

i just wanted to say that a hobbyist should not spend too much money because he cant be shure that the game will sell well enough that he doesnt end up in the reds. but thats just my opinion.

Adding that qualifier "hobbyiest" makes all the difference and in that we agree. If this is a hobby to you, you shouldn't sink too much money into it because you won't get it back. Of course if you have money to burn, then by all means sink away.

But what you say about publishers is true but even then it's a risk. After all, they may find it fun and it won't sell or they may find it boring and it will sale. There is no guaranteed way to know what a product will do and therein lies the risk. I'm only taking exception to your comment that it is ZERO risk to the publisher when there is alway risk.

Quote:

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Hence my inquiry as to how some of you got working

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I used a bootstrap method:
Year 1: Built a small prototype (0 USD).
Year 2: Used this to raise some funds for a larger prototype (a few hundred USD).
Year 3: Used this to raise some funds for an even larger prototype (a few thousand USD).
Year 4: Once the prototype was convincing enough, I used it to raise enough money to build a demo (a few ten thousand USD).
Year 5: I'm currenlty building the demo that will (ideally) attract the investors to actually build the game (a few million USD).

I'm creating an MMOG so you can actually do this much quicker and for less target money but the approach is the same: "Dream Big, Start Small".

The boostrap method is not really possible, or at least I am not finding it to be.

As I do not program, it would be immensely difficult to prototype even. Rest assured, though, if I could, this would not even be a discussion, lol.

My specific item requires a comparatively small amount (roundabout 20k.. 25 at most), most of which development costs.. that I based on the last time I went scouting for developers. It's a small amount compared to what it will generate (it has a target revenue that it either will or wont hit to completion by end of term), but it's an amount that would have to come from a loan of some type, most likely.

Why couldn't I boostrap? Well, mostly because I don't have all the skills needed to do so, and I've never heard of anyone that does, who would do even prototype level working for free.. or even cheaply. Almost everyone's mercinary, busy with a project, or both.

I wish that was the case, though. Then maybe I could boostrap it enough to build something that visually demonstrates the design, so that I could either sell SkySpace or acquire the funds to put it all the way to manifest myself ( which I'd much prefer).

I have, however, come to the conclusion that that isnt.

Well.. I guess I don't not program..

That's a little innacurate. I have the time to learn it, like I had the time to learn other programming languages and if I end up getting mad enough, I'll do just that.

But supposing you had an idea pertaining to mechanical engineering.. would it make more sense to round up and consult established mechanical engineers or go get a masters degree in mechanical engineering so that you could build it all yourself and answer all your own questions?

At this moment I'm expanding my programming knowledge, and if I beat the punch learning it versus drafting a dedicated programmer, then I'll craft the entire shabang myself (though I wont be paying myself by the hour so it still wont take me 8 year to finish it).

I don't think anyone would give money for anything. But if I knew how to go about presenting what I have put together (des. docs.. visual aids, demos etc), I wouldn't be asking around to find out how everyone else went about getting the funding for their games.

That.. was my inquiry.

Mind you.. games can be bootstrapped, because they don't really have set costs, but this really can't be.

It costs money for the artwork to be done, the lines of code to be written, the server and client software to be written and compiled, and it costs money to be advertised. Very little of it can be winged without money, though I am carrying that torch as far as it'll go, currently.

It has costs for things that can't be avoided, thus the need to acquire the funding. Conversely, I'd be pretty foolish to expect it "given" because I need it.

If that were so, you're right, we'd all be pretty well off. My current dilemma (though it wont be much of one for much longer if my current pace of learning keeps up..) is that even the smallest of the small prototypes would take quite a bit of work and expertise, most of which (granted not all) I don't have.

This is not so different than any of your projects.. I've only seen one person build a game, start to finish (though what I'm crafting isnt a game..) by himself.

Though it was in terrible shape that still was a marvel, (for fear or reprisal I wont mention who it was or what game it was, but I think you all can remember a certain person who's game got thrown to the lions here, because it was.. well.. like jelly as games go.. though it was an impressive effort he put forth) in my opinion.. but an absolute rarity.

I think my point is that it's passionate, but woefully innefficient to go it alone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who agrees.

Mind you, I could. I have the zeal for it and I'm selfish enough, under the right circumstances. I'd even do it right, as I am a perfectionist at everything I do, and as my "baby" there's no way I'd put crap out there for the world to see.

I don't put the ICEman seal of approval on any of my models until they are done completely right.

But I'd rather work with a team of those who have a reasonable certainty of what they're doing in their field of expertise. I'd rather us build a relationship.

I'd rather dish out contract payment+bonus for outstanding product. Why? Because that's how entertainment software is made.

Bill Gates made Microsoft, but all its software products were made by his league of extraordinary geeks. Not just him.

As I have found, good troops respond well to money, and not much else. That part is a simple understanding.

Paid troops=hard work=finished, functional, well made product/prototype.

I.. suppose you could count my animated (not programmed) versions as prototypes, but they only seem to serve in demonstrating the idea.. very well too. I'm good with visual aids. my emphasis here is

I could go in front of an angel this moment, now.. with what I've crafted for it.. then build it all myself.. spend all his money.. pay him his principal+return+bonus (I do business the japanese way sometimes..) a year later.. and keep all the taxable profit myself.

I'd rather build this with a team, I'd rather build what comes after it with a team, but if I continue to have no luck in that effort, I most likely will boostrap-toothpaste-hammer-and-nail it.

I'd rather it not be my own personal infernal machine, though. Surely that has to make some sense.

i agree that if you have that! idea that noone had bevore and this idea will sell well. you should after checking pros and cons risk that probably. but be careful not to ruin your personal life for an idea.

@ fastlane: as for publishers i got offered some contracts and always there is some sentence that says like "if someone complains about the product or an damage to our image is done, you have to pay for that" i cant translate this a 100% but it works like this: image a company licenses your game, you signed such a contract, then a testmagazine somewhere gives the game 3% out of 100% possible and finds like 3 bugs in the game. this article is published. then imagine 3 customers complain about the game. further imagine your game wont sell.
this scenario is not uncommon.

the publisher can then sue you(at least in germany) for a) the money he possibly lost due to the image damage caused by you b) you have to pay for all copies the retail store sends back to the publisher.

now i dont see where there is a risk for the publisher? their contracts are made so that they have really zero risk, believe me. even if the game sucks they can come back to you and sue you for money. that thought in mind compared to the low revenues most publishers offer are really insane for a indie. thats probably why a lot of them go for self publishing online.

@ ulf

Exactly, bru. I weighed most of the pros and cons out when I came up with the idea.. shortly following the " holy crap.. that's a great idea" stage.

Also.. as a bit of a gestive sidenote:

I've ruined my personal life for every other reason.. why not one that wont cheat on me

Fastlane is offering really solid advice.

I only have a few things to add.

1) Raising Capital is not an "Art" it is a "Science". You will need factual evidence that you will be able to produce a product using the funds. You will also need to supply solid histroical evidence that your game will sell x number of copies.

2) Think past just raising the funds. How are you going to pay that money back and what is the acceptable return for the investor. They are thinking in dollars, you need to also.

It's really not about the game it's about the money. If you can not demostrate that concpet to the person you are asking money from, you will have a hard time getting the funds.

Ken

@ fast and nard

I agree, completely.

These are steps I have already gone through, and go through repeatedly for freshness. Again, I know enough not to think that just a blank toilet seat idea will get attention.

My "How" most refers to.. who sought investors, who ran side businesses to raise the money, who sought mob loans (jk).

I've heard some people say they wrote grants (in my private convos with people over the years).

I think, though, I may have answered my own question somewhere in this. Still, this is good info for others.

I'm looking for resources more than an idiots guide to getting an investment.