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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: Damocles]
#125850
04/23/07 17:34
04/23/07 17:34
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NITRO777
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Since we live in an age now, where humans come up with more and more improved medical treatments, one of the mechanism of evolution vanishes. And that is Selection. A lot of people that would otherwise have died, are now able to survive and reproduce.
Agreed, at least evolution as is defined with natural selection(which I agree with)
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Mutation is still active,
Of course I disagree with this, mutation has never evolved anyone, there are just simply put too many mutations, the genome is deteriorating. It is a msitake of too many people to confuse technology with evolution. We live longer because of technology, not mutation, and definitely not from selection(at least with humans.)
So thanks for the reply, I agree with you mostly.
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: Ran Man]
#125851
04/23/07 17:40
04/23/07 17:40
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NITRO777
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The core belief in "Darwinism" is rooted in the old pagan goal of NO MORALS.
I dont know if I can see the connection between Darwinism and old pagans, but I can definitely see that people embrace Darwinism BECAUSE they are pagans. It basically just gives license to do what you want which is really what paganism is all about.
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: LarryLaffer]
#125853
04/23/07 17:47
04/23/07 17:47
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Excessus
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Nitro, you make a wrong assumption: believing in evolutionary theory is not the same as having evolution as the highest goal. Quote:
man can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are strongest or which seem to him the best one.
To me, "improving our species" is not a strong impuls or instinct, neither is it for 99.99% of the supporters of evolution. Yes, you can use this to support extremist ideology, but so can religion. What I mean to say is that it is very easy to twist any theory/religion to support your sick ideas. I believe in evolutionary theory, but I don't think the 'unfit' should be exterminated. I guess I view such extremist thoughts the same as you do the "pervertion of Jesus' moral code".
You said it yourself, even a moral code (Bible), that is (in your world view) 'good', can be twisted to support 'wrong' ideas. Same goes for evolutionary theory.
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: Damocles]
#125854
04/23/07 17:47
04/23/07 17:47
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NITRO777
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Quote:
I also ment the deterioating effect of mutation. Without selection / less selection the number of mutations add up over the generations, actually deteriorating the genetic base. Thats why I think humas will have much more genetically caused desises in the (far) future.
Really? Well in that case I agree with you much more than I thought. Indeed, if you look at the work of population geneticists like Kimura and most modern genetics research you will understand that the human genome is quickly deteriorating. Basically because selection acts on the level of the organism, while mutation acts on the level of the nucleotide. Most people dont understand that.
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: Excessus]
#125855
04/23/07 17:54
04/23/07 17:54
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NITRO777
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Quote:
believing in evolutionary theory is not the same as having evolution as the highest goal.
No I am not making that assumption, Im simply letting that inference hang in the air, letting people make that kind of rationale on their own without suggesting it all. I will tell you, however, which assumption I AM making, and that is that DArwinism is definitely connected to Nazi Racism, and I am also making the definite assumption that while Hitler was crazy, he was not alone in his crazyness. I am not saying that Darwinism was the only road to Auschwitz, because there were many factors involved, I wouldnt be that presumptious, but the racism in Nazi Germany was definitely derived from Darwinistic thought, however extreme it might have been
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: NITRO777]
#125856
04/23/07 17:54
04/23/07 17:54
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682 Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
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I dont know if I can see the connection between Darwinism and old pagans, but I can definitely see that people embrace Darwinism BECAUSE they are pagans. It basically just gives license to do what you want which is really what paganism is all about.
Yes, soo true. Just like the pagans of old, they are just trying to find an excuse to be immoral and not be held accountable. It seems very spooky similiar? Sheesh... 
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: Excessus]
#125857
04/23/07 18:05
04/23/07 18:05
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NITRO777
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To me, "improving our species" is not a strong impuls or instinct, neither is it for 99.99% of the supporters of evolution. Yes, you can use this to support extremist ideology, but so can religion. What I mean to say is that it is very easy to twist any theory/religion to support your sick ideas. I believe in evolutionary theory, but I don't think the 'unfit' should be exterminated. I guess I view such extremist thoughts the same as you do the "pervertion of Jesus' moral code".
Also, you say that you believe in evolution WITHOUT embracing the extreme ideas of pre-ww2 Germany. OK. BUt part of my purpose in starting this thread is also to determine WHAT your moral code is, and by asking some various questions Id really like to know.
For example, a few posts up I asked, Quote:
1)You believe that when you die you will cease, your body will rot in the ground and become part of the environment, correct? Then I am curious as to what sort of purpose your life when it was lived had at all? Im not saying you have no purpose, Im just asking you what your purpose for living is, from the perspective of a person who believes that when they die they simply are gone.
2)Do you think that the following attributes are inheritable: laziness, alcoholism, addiction, and the tendency to committ crime?
Now you say that you dont embrace these extreme ideas, then I would like to ask you the same questions I asked Phemox. Perhaps this extremesism is more prevalent than you know.
And certainly the de-valuation of life which comes from Darwinism is responsible for abortion, which I call "the silent holocaust", and stem cell research, euthanasia, racial profiling, etc.
I wouldnt be too quick to reject it as irrelevant.
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Re: Darwin->Rassenhygiene
[Re: NITRO777]
#125858
04/23/07 18:31
04/23/07 18:31
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,013 The Netherlands
Excessus
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Quote:
You believe that when you die you will cease, your body will rot in the ground and become part of the environment, correct? Then I am curious as to what sort of purpose your life when it was lived had at all? Im not saying you have no purpose, Im just asking you what your purpose for living is, from the perspective of a person who believes that when they die they simply are gone.
I don't think my life has a purpose at all. What I do is indeed dependent on my impulses and are generally geared to reaching some personal goals and having fun while also keeping my future and the people around me in mind.
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Do you think that the following attributes are inheritable: laziness, alcoholism, addiction, and the tendency to committ crime?
I think all of these are to some extent related to genes, yes. However, I think for all of these that the environment plays a bigger role than the genes. Once again, believing this is not the same as saying that all criminals or lazy people should be prevented from giving birth or anything like that.
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And certainly the de-valuation of life which comes from Darwinism is responsible for abortion, which I call "the silent holocaust", and stem cell research, euthanasia, racial profiling, etc.
I wouldnt be too quick to reject it as irrelevant.
I'm not saying it is irrelevant. Infact, it has had a major effect on society. I just want to make it clear that - while extremist ideas can be derived from evulotionary theory (just like it can be derived from Christianity) - believing evolutionary theory does not constitute believing in those things like rassenhygiene or racial profiling, which is wrong in both of our moral frames of reference.
So to once again state what you want to hear: extremist ideas can be established around evolutionary theory. But that does not mean evolutionary theory itself is a bad thing. For if you use that logic, you must dismiss Christianity aswell.
Last edited by Excessus; 04/23/07 18:35.
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