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How to tell your story #135397
06/10/07 21:36
06/10/07 21:36
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline OP
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Error014  Offline OP
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Germany
It came up a few times (mostly in my post, for whatever reason) in the "Bad Guy wins...?"-thread: The importance of a story in your game.

Of course, it all depends on what kind of game you are making. Racing games need different (if any) stories than Adventure games. However: How to write stories that are gripping and compelling? How to make sure that the player will feel like character X and how can I do it so he will be sad that he/she is gone? How should I present my story in my game? How can I avoid that its too much on some parts and to little on others?

All these are interesting aspects about how to tell and how to create your story, and I'm sure there dozens more. The keypoint is, nowadays, all we talk about are new shaders and AI and how to balance RTS-games. Sure thats important, but the story kind of got lost in the process. Looking at the beloved Showcase-forum, it seems that many don't even consider the story to be of any importance at all. They throw a few clichéd stereotypes and scenarioideas together and thats all there is to it.

I'd argue that one should be able to answer most if not all questions about the world the characters live in, maybe a bit about the history and they should be able to say a thing or two about the characters: Including backstory, motives, goals in life, etc. for the most important characters if they want to say that story is of any importance for the game.

And what about linearity? If you really try to add an intriguing story, you'll sooner or later notice that its a million times easier to make that in a relatively linear game. How to avoid that or should we even do that? For my game, I'm fine with linearity. It also didn't bother me in Phoenix Wright or similar games: I gladly trade nonlinearity if the story I get in return is so much better. However, if done right and if the story doesn't fall flat, than nonlinearity is of course a great thing to have. Can we do something like that as indydevelopers?



What I'd like to know is what you think about the importance of story, how characters should be presented and developed (maybe you can give examples from other games?) and how to present it in your game so its distributed pretty much evenly and you don't just play "from cutscene to cutscene". How can you make sure the player won't get lost? Quizzes at the end of each chapter (Hotel Dusk did this)? And finally, how important is the story in your game? Can you tell us everything of importance for your characters? Or do you have to admit that aside from his name and his preferences for guns, there isn't all that much to your hero?

Let's hear your thoughts!


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

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Re: How to tell your story [Re: Error014] #135398
06/11/07 00:32
06/11/07 00:32
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Inestical Offline
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The How I'd do it on RPG:

I start narrating about historical events, if they are needed. Then I narrate the background of the character (also visually showing characters, but not identifying them).

As the game passes I would reveal more and more about the story by telling player to go to a place, cutscenes, flashbacks, dialogues and give deeper information through sidequests. Then in the end I will make clear wether you are destined to die or win the foe you think is evil (or good, whereareas you consider yourself evil).

The How I'd do it on FPS:

Linearically start from the current and show the player where to go, and reveal the story with cutscenes and dialogues, also by looking around you, examining your positions, ranks(?), names of npcs and so more of the story. In the end the player must be able to defeat the evil. If it's with the cost of his/her life, the bad guy has to fall first.

The How I'd do it on RTS:

Don't have too deep experience on storywriting of RTS:s =(

Would these ways help the player keep up and move deeper and deeper to the game and its universe?

The story development is (IMHO) the most important thing in a game. without a story, it's just a tech-demo.

Last edited by Inestical; 06/11/07 00:40.

"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
Re: How to tell your story [Re: Inestical] #135399
06/11/07 00:45
06/11/07 00:45
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San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline
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Great thread!

Super into the backstories! If you come up with interesting characters, think a long time about who they are, what happened to them as kids, what they love and hate, and why.. from musical tastes to what they would do in their spare time, to what they are afraid of and why.. I think once you figure this stuff out about your characters, when you write for them it is a lot more like you are just acting for them. Put the two together and see what they would do with one another. I've written a couple of backstories for the main characters in my game and it has been the smartest thing-- because level design has come out of it.. knowing what the characters are like, I realized what kinds of levels would be interesting for them. So in a way, the characters personalities can actually change and shape gameplay, if the game is designed well. Sleepy Sushi Service is a very story driven action adventure game, and the big questions I've asked myself are, how would my character react in this setting, if I already have a level. The other is-- which circumstances would be really fun for my character?

Having this stuff in front of you makes the rest of the game design a LOT easier. It's the "don't put the cart in front of the horse" thing.

Linearity is tricky! GTA San Andreas had a kind of quasi-linear structure that worked well.. it had fantastic character development and a wide-reaching story.. but the way that you could take your pick of a limited amount of available missions and at your leisure really created the feeling of a non-linear experience. For my game, I originally wanted to tell this linear story, but then got into the idea of adding a whole bunch of NPC's that you could socialize with.. and I had to prune that stuff back so it was manageable. I can't imagine the amount of management just on organizing and tracking story events in GTA: San Andreas.

Re: How to tell your story [Re: JetpackMonkey] #135400
06/11/07 05:44
06/11/07 05:44
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Inestical Offline
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Some addition:

Once you come up with one character, you make the story for him, as it happened for him, of course something happened earlier and that other was responsible for that, ooh you have two characters! Now if you think it even further.....

When making story, NPC's are not allowed to interfere the result of the game. They can alter, modify or otherwise change the development and enviroment, but the result must keep up in the same, unless you target to alternate endings. Even in Fable there was one ultimate ending.


"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
Re: How to tell your story [Re: Inestical] #135401
06/11/07 07:01
06/11/07 07:01
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,264
Wellington
Nems Offline

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Wellington
Good points,
I always develop the story first for any of my test levels and in fact, the overiding story that encompasses all my test levels is still the same after 4 years.

Linearity in games should I think, be seen in the light of of the game industry historically and contemporanously, an interctive story or movie!
Regardless of the gendre, its the story that sells, that captures the imagination.
Saying a game is based on WW2 scenarios is not as emotioally captivating as say 'Jack falls into a plot to call forth ancient powers and must stop it'

Like a book, you dont really know what the story is really about untill you play or read it and once played, tuck it in the library for future pleasures.

This is where good concept development can come into play, developing a world model, the technologies, characters and plots as well as the suspension of disbelief between the game character world and the real world.

Pandering to primitive fears and expectations may be a good basis to develope a story line from or to keep in mind when developing a story, e.g ancient evils, heavenly rewards, babes (in whatever preference) and most importantly, consistancy based on those expectations raised by the storyline plot. Digress and so would your audience maybe.

A story could be of a singular nature and complete or complex in starting points (history) character characteristics, (real world growth of characters and environs) in a multithreaded manner.

I think ideally, a base story should be able to cover mini games as well as add-ons or Mods and so on.

To illustrate,
the overall theme of my story line is conspiracy where two events occur in the distant past that enable the character to have unusual abilities (a must when opposing overwhelming odds)and unusual discoveries.
Event one is a super advanced nano ship coming to grief in the dim past and having a small part of the ship chip off and eventually make its way to earth as a meteor where the nanites, over the development period of hominids grow and evolve using nature as its template design specs (It has lost the ability to think rationally due to being seperated from the mother ship and so must evolve to overcome this limitation, eventually forming a partnership with humans). Naturally this introduces the foundation of unusual abilities and due to those abilities, unusual events occur to stop the character from taking another breath.

Side line stories? -- Ducks nano enhanced, take on the duck hunters...Ants develope society, technology and a thirst for knowledge. Both are set in a cartoon humorous vein but tie directly into the main overall story.
The result is that the mini game then becomes the advertising model and bait as well as a preview of the game itself so setting the mark of interest or not.

bit of a ramble here so I'll just move right along...

Re: How to tell your story [Re: Nems] #135402
06/11/07 07:52
06/11/07 07:52
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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good stories are haaaaaaaaaaaard to write.

a very good exercise is to pick one character from a plot (movie, book) and replace it with another character from another plot.
Your task is to rewrite the story that way the nex character fits in smooth and develops the story.

this sounds easier then it is.

only thing i would recommend: no blah blah. focus on what is entertaining and important. 2 pages of how beautiful the weather is, dont make much fun and sense.

have the gutts to cut the climax of a story and pause. This can end in a way more intense experience.
entering a bright and friendly room during a survival horror game can do wonders for your atmosphere.

add characteristic marks to your characters. not every hero needs to be mr. super uber mege man. Try to add at least one special thing to your character that differs it from the others.

most important and hardly made well: the enemy!!!!!!!!
class not mass! make him hard to beat. no numbnut who slashes and solves everything with the broadsword.

cheers


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Re: How to tell your story [Re: Blattsalat] #135403
06/11/07 09:09
06/11/07 09:09
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,640
Earth
Germanunkol Offline
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Quote:

And finally, how important is the story in your game?




I personally think it's the most important thing in most games. At least the larger ones. you can play breakout without a story, but not an rpg.
RPGs are generally my favourite type of games, BECAUSE you can change the story. That's what I want to do in games: change things. Even if it's just rearanging a room, it's more fun, in my opinion, than just walking through the room.

Most important to the story would be the character, I believe. You need to give him background. Think about it even when you aren't going to show it.

But, I agree, "2 pages of how beautiful the weather is, dont make much fun and sense." That's why it would be much easier to show it all in cutscenes. I wouldn't use text to present the story. the player wants to play, not to read. you can take a book for that. Show short movies, or even develop while playing... interaction with other players, for example.
I think one thing that's really missing in the story and the character's development is emotion. "Company of Heros" was pretty good with that, it showed how the soldiers were acting when off duty. Or it showed guys screaming when they were being bombed. It looked realistic. One lieutenant broke down (mentally) when the commander was killed. He got really serious, and did not laugh again during the game.
In halo, I remember hating how the Master chief never showed emotions. the guys around him did, but he was always calm. Yeah, his suit is great, but he should have taken off the helmet every now and then, so the user can see that he's sweating, scared, angry.
As soon as you see others react to things that happen, you'll react to them as well. If I notice something in real life, but don't really care about it, but it makes my girlfriend cry, I'll start thinking about it as well. Same with a computer game. If a guy gets shot, I don't care much. He's just a whole bunch of zeros and ones, nothing more. But when my character runs to him, grabs his shirt, pounds his head on the ground and yells at him "GET UP, GET UP!" then I will be "pulled in", I'll start caring about both the character and the dead man.

Changing the story during runtime... I think hardly any game has done it perfectly. Even big companies are struggling with it. Yeah, you can choose a whole bunch in oblivion, but in the end everyone saves the empire by closing the oblivion gates and helping to kill the devil. There's other games that give you more freedom (I believe STALKER does, haven't played it yet), but there's no game who's nonlinear story entirely pleases me. I don't think it'll be easy for indies either. Maybe what you've got to take care off is that the character reacts in a logical way to all events, no matter what. then if the story's linear or not won't matter as much...

I believe the story's important, and the character(s) is/are the most important thing in the story. And those characters can only be developed through showing emotion.

Micha


~"I never let school interfere with my education"~
-Mark Twain
Re: How to tell your story [Re: Germanunkol] #135404
06/13/07 11:02
06/13/07 11:02
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline OP
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Error014  Offline OP
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Good replies so far! Go on, go on, go on!

Quote:


I start narrating about historical events, if they are needed. Then I narrate the background of the character (also visually showing characters, but not identifying them).

As the game passes I would reveal more and more about the story by telling player to go to a place, cutscenes, flashbacks, dialogues and give deeper information through sidequests.




So, basically, you'd do it like in any other RPG ever created?

So you are telling the player what kind of world he is in, what happened and how everything works... When I played Final Fantasy (I think it was 5), I restarted (you couldn't save up to that point). I then had to watch the complete, stupid intro again. It drove me insane. It was bad enough the first time, but I really can't be bothered to see that dragon flying around AGAIN AND AGAIN. Its not that amazing to begin with.
However, that was when I really noticed how long intros have become these days (and that was a remake from a pretty old game). I'm fine with a short information and instruction, but please, leave something for me to find out on my own! I don't want to see a ten-minute-video explaining all there is. In my game, I let the player interact with the maincharacter with a dialog. Using that kind of itneractivity can be pretty helpful, I'd argue.

I think it might be neat if the player has to figure out how the world works on his own. Don't tell him that there are three gods for fire, water and wind or whatever. Cut that. He'll notice when he sees the big cathedral. If he really is interested in this, then he will ask a priest in the church. It's relevant to the plot? Then make it interesting enough that I will ask!

Oh, and don't use magic to explain the final turn of events. Personally, I think it is much better if anything that happens is actually logical or at least possible and plausible. If I think "Why haven't I thought of that myself?!", then you won. But if you just say "Hah, it's magic, got'ya there, huh?", then it feels more like you're cheating.

Quote:


The How I'd do it on FPS:




In Metroid Prime (I'm sure someone will come out and tell me that is not a FPS but an adventure, but right now, I can't be bothered. You shoot stuff, right?), you could scan things, which gave you a small text about the thing. You then had to put the story together on your own. That was a neat approach, although some players didn't like it. Certainly, it adds a lot of time for your "gamingsession" and not everyone has that. Sure, it's no problem with 13-year-old-shooter fans, but whats with the people who have to work? Please, will somebody think of them?!
So what am I saying here? Only using cutscenes to advance the story is obviously not enough. Not using them at all will seriously limit your ability to tell that story. It's a little tricky to balance this.

Of course, some shooters are better without any story. If you use the words "bloody sport" or "tournament of brutal violence", then its just embarassing and we all could live without it.


Quote:

So in a way, the characters personalities can actually change and shape gameplay, if the game is designed well.




So have I noticed. Its actually quite surprising how much changes if you just planned out and thought out the characters well. You think of new circumstances and situations that would be interesting - not in the light of leveldesign or gamemechanics, but just due to the characters. With such situations, your game starts to depend more on your characters and story than on gamemechanics, which is actually a good thing, because it makes the experience all the more meaningful.

As far as GTAs approach goes: I thought the story took a backseat, actually. For me, it felt more like a dozen scenarios with no or no real realation to them. One moment I went through the town and did whatever I want, then I did a mission and then I did whatever I wanted again, only to continue with another mission somewhere else. It all was fun, but the missions felt more like another possible activity than anything that added to the story to me. But hey, maybe thats just me? I can't remember the name of any single character from that game, aside the maincharacter (and even that is kinda fuzzy)... Yet I still know who Glottis, Manny calavera, Guybrush Threepwood or Edgeworth are

Quote:

When making story, NPC's are not allowed to interfere the result of the game. They can alter, modify or otherwise change the development and enviroment, but the result must keep up in the same, unless you target to alternate endings.




If you want that, you have to make sure that while they don't influence the story, it has to seem that way. You can't just ignore what the player has done ("Do you want to go there?" "Yes"->You go there. "No"->"I don't think thats a good idea, but I have no choice!"->You go there). Either you open up different paths in the story or you have to use some clever writing to make it seem that the NPCs influence the whole thing.

Wasn't there a game that sent emails to you in the "real world" to make the characters more believable? Thats also a neat idea. Everything that makes the characters more believable is a good thing, I guess. As long as you don't get a million emails...!

Quote:

Saying a game is based on WW2 scenarios is not as emotioally captivating as say 'Jack falls into a plot to call forth ancient powers and must stop it'




Actually, both are scenarios (not stories - not yet, at least ) that are used pretty often. Personally, I'd love to see a RPG thats NOT about an anient god trying to kill everything or about mystical crystals breaking and I'm the chosen hero blahblah. Whats up with that? Why can't I be the normal guy for a change? Games are so predictable. There is a huge machine on that mountain? Well, you can bet you have to go there at one point in the game! As much as it adds to the epic feel, we should be careful that it doesn't become ridiculous. I know that its hard to think of a story that has the player venture through dungeons and stuff, but the next time I have to find X (usually 8) things out of X (usually 8) temples to ban an evil overlord, only to find out that I was just a little late, I'm going to scream.

Quote:

Pandering to primitive fears and expectations may be a good basis to develope a story line from or to keep in mind when developing a story, e.g ancient evils, heavenly rewards




This is done so often in games, it's sad already. In movies or books, sometimes its only about a character who has lost his wife. If it were a game, you can bet that she was killed by an evil organisation and that the player has to go out and kill them all as revenge. Thats predictable and stupid. There are only very few games that tackle emotions (the plural as in "more than one") of the characters.
Why not a game thats ultimately about overcoming the fears of the character? If he is afraid of heights, show that in the leveldesign by grossly exaggerating it and let me play through this "nightmare". That is still cliché, but at least I don't have a gun in my hand.
Emotions, feelings and thoughts of the maincharacters are also an intriguing theme for games. A shame that they are almost never really used. And now, a "feeling that we have to go there" doesn`t count.

Quote:

Digress and so would your audience maybe.




But making it to straightforward means making it dull. I think its okay to have many turns in the story and a few sidestories here and there. of course, one should make sure the player won't be confused by too many sidestories, but I think they can make the characters feel more deep and meaningful.

Quote:


have the gutts to cut the climax of a story and pause. This can end in a way more intense experience.




It can, but it doesn't have to. If it doesn't, you lost. This obviously works better in some games than in others - particulary well in survival horror games, because you're always at the edge of your seat and constantly in fear (if you did it right, that is ). Thus something very unexpected will have a great impact, because one continues to be unsure.

It can work well for other stories, but its certainly harder to do.

Quote:

most important and hardly made well: the enemy!




I agree! Thats certainly one aspect that can be easily improved upon. I'm tired of crazy scientists and even more of nameless soldiers. Show me that the bad guy has a motive! I don't ahve to completely agree with him, of course, but if I can relate, at least partly, then thats a good thing.
In games, its so often all in black and white. You're the good hero with a "pure heart" and then there is the evil and mad bad guy. Neither of them is a realistic or believable character. Everyone has done something bad at one point, so don't give me the "pure heart"-thing. And the bad guy? What has happened to him that he became like this? That might be interesting. Let me know! Make that character something other than a pure plot device or goal to work towards.

Quote:

I wouldn't use text to present the story. the player wants to play, not to read.




Thats very hard to create your characterdrama without any words whatsoever. I can't imagine to get as many voiceactors as I'd need for my game, so I have to use text. So what? It worked in Phoenix Wright, it worked in the first two Monkey Islands, why not for my game?

Quote:

Maybe what you've got to take care off is that the character reacts in a logical way to all events, no matter what.




The problem is, you are pretty limited as to what you can do with your characters. If the maincharacter, the one that is controled by the player, also has a backstory, then some actions the player might chose for him just wouldn't make sense. And all the other characters are the same anyway (they won't ALL change completely due to the decision of the player), so you're bound to end up with similar situations at least. Or you make the maincharacter a blank canvas and let the player decide everything. But then you'd likely need a bigger pool of characters (because the player will meet and team up with different characters as the evil murderer compared to the wise hero).

Quote:

And those characters can only be developed through showing emotion.





With all this talk, it might be a good idea to say that we shouldn't overdo it. Not everyone will cry or tell their deepest secrets because of one sentence you said. And if you do it right, you can build suspense with this... "What is going on in the mind of this character?" and "Why doesn't he tell me this?" aren't bad questions if they come from the player and can act as motivator. Just make sure to ease his pain and tell him at one point!


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Re: How to tell your story [Re: Error014] #135405
06/13/07 14:48
06/13/07 14:48
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Inestical Offline
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woot, my turn:

Quote:

So, basically, you'd do it like in any other RPG ever created?



Well, dunno, I'd do it in the way that I and players will enjoy it, since new stuff isn't always the best selection.

Quote:

When I played Final Fantasy (I think it was 5), I restarted (you couldn't save up to that point). I then had to watch the complete, stupid intro again. It drove me insane. It was bad enough the first time, but I really can't be bothered to see that dragon flying around AGAIN AND AGAIN. Its not that amazing to begin with.



Ah... The Final-Fantasy-Must-See-Awesome-Unskippable-CG-Movies, rox the first and second time, after that... awwww... booooriinngg.. Of course the introduction, intro, whatever has to be skippable. If player decides not to know what's going on, he/she may hit the Esc/X/A/Start button.

Quote:

If you want that, you have to make sure that while they don't influence the story, it has to seem that way. You can't just ignore what the player has done ("Do you want to go there?" "Yes"->You go there. "No"->"I don't think thats a good idea, but I have no choice!"->You go there).



What I ment was the ultimate ending, like you defeat the god, you die when your friend kills you, etc. Quests can make you look different, have different setup and different party even, but the ultimate ending result normally has to remain the same, UNLESS you want alternate endings.

Quote:

most important and hardly made well: the enemy!



I'll spoil up something. In the game I'm currently designing (storylines, characters, fine-tuning world, quests, humour, weapons....) the main pair are from the both sides of the war. It can be "clear" in the beginning who is the bad guy.. but.. I also give the motives, good sides and positives of the bad guy (the other main character is/was his supporter anyways). Same for the other side. In the end the player has to choose which side to go on with.

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe what you've got to take care off is that the character reacts in a logical way to all events, no matter what.



The problem is, you are pretty limited as to what you can do with your characters. If the maincharacter, the one that is controled by the player, also has a backstory, then some actions the player might chose for him just wouldn't make sense.



Exactly. The player has an alignment, he has his traumas and he has his problems and other emo stuff, which have (sometimes) biig impact on what you can do with him. This is always the hard part in making the npc's, world, allowed places and such. It'd suck if Cloud would have a cup of coffee (*cough*sake*cough*) with Reno in Shin-Ra faculty..

Finally, ever seen a game with perfect story, I mean, that you always knew what was happening and got swallowed up in the universe of <insert game name here>?


"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
Re: How to tell your story [Re: Inestical] #135406
06/13/07 14:52
06/13/07 14:52
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
San Francisco
JetpackMonkey Offline
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