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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: JibbSmart]
#135427
06/22/07 12:02
06/22/07 12:02
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
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Posts: 5,900
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Quote:
well i guess that's everything except the single twist!! um... i know! when u finally shoot the deer, two eagles swoop in simultaneously and take the deer away so you can't claim your prize.
The story is complete with finally shooting the deer. And, you could be proud, if you finished this game and story. Although, its nothing special. But, is a story complete, if it has nothing special? Is 'finally shooting the deer' - means 'finally fullfill the task of the beginning' - a twist? The deer could turn out to be a bewitched prince, or re-animate to a zombie deer, or your alter ego, so that in consequence you die too!
EDIT: In case the eagles take the deer away, or if the deer turns out to be a bewitched prince, these are elements which have to be involved in the former parts (beginning and/or middle, too); in case of the eagles, they might be part of the gameplay, attacking you and the deer, maybe; in case of the bewitched prince, it could be the prince who gave you the orderer of the hunting, maybe with the hint: you won't get the dogs for that, please, shoot him with a single strike, he is the proudest deer of my forest, and you are the best of my hunters!
Last edited by Pappenheimer; 06/22/07 13:14.
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#135428
06/22/07 15:21
06/22/07 15:21
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208 Germany
Error014
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After finishing this, you can add other parts, twists or what you like, part by part.
I'm not so sure. If you are truly wanting to make a great story (and, well, who doesn't?), then you should ahve it thought it out from the beginning. Certain turns and twists of events have to be planned from the very beginning. All actions have to make sense in light of the "final" situation (i.e. after the player knows all the turns and twists, the story should make sense to him, he shouldn't think "wait, why didn't the evil guy used the superrobot sooner?"). If you have a story finished and then add twists and turns, then you are very limited as to where you can go with it (or you completely rewrite it, but then it wasn't too bright to make a simple story to begin with).
I see where you are going with this, and its certainly a good idea to keep things simple, at least for the first projects. But you won't make an intriguing story that surprises the player this way.
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Another good example of a simple story is the One Knights Stand.
Nothing against that project, but do you really think that people will say "Did you play that game there? The story is awesome, I was constantly surprised and I really got to care for its characters"?. I doubt that. They also won't hope for a sequel, because they want to find out more about the characters, or what happened afterwards (don't get me wrong, maybe they want a sequel because the game was fun to play, but probably not for the reasons stated here). It is also more of a scenario than a story. It has a basic premise, but there is not much more to it. Oh well.
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To examplify what's the 'middle' of the story: look at Angela's World - there is no beginning and no end of the story! This said, we can conclude that a game needs at least the middle, maybe we can conclude as well, that the gameplay must be identical with the acting part of the middle... (Not sure, wether this makes sense though)
Again, I disagree. AngelasWorld is a great example for the power of style and the simplicity in games, but its story falls flat. Surely, you can interpret something in it, due to the black/white-color scheme and who knows? He might have hidden some symbolic meanings into it. But that is not a story. It is again just a scenario. This is all about the story we know: (from the Readme)
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Help little Angela collect her small roses, but avoid the sparks!
And that is not a story. We know nothing about the why, the where (yeah, its a planet thats angry), the who ("little Angela" is hardly a thorough characterization), etc. Its a scenario. But the game is not an example for storytelling.
(Uuuh... Sorry Kihaku. Don't worry, I'm now hated by the community for this, I guess )
Your conclusion thus falls apart, I'm afraid. This is a game without a story (again, its more a brief outline), its only (simple, but in a good way) gameplay and lots and lots of style. Now, if he added a storyline, then it might be something alike the "Nightmare before Christmas".
But how do you structure beginning, middle and end in games? You can of course put the whole "beginning" in the intro, but it might be cool to let the player find that out all alone. Let him do what he wants. If he controls the character, then what he witness and "survives" might seem a lot stronger to the player - An instant win for you! 
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But, is a story complete, if it has nothing special?
Well, it might be complete. The better question is: "Is a worthwile story complete if it has nothing special?". Why bother telling a story that has nothing surprising, out-of-the-ordinary in it? Thats an element we might have to add. Give us an unique character or an unique situation (or both) and make it all meaningful (for your complete audience, by the way, not only for your character. Give them motives everyone understands - see also: Tim Schafers speech).
--
This is an interesting quote from Ron Gilbert (creator of Monkey Island):
Quote:
Most games that claim to - or are accused of - having a story, really don't have stories at all. What they have are scenarios. Stories are much more than an excuse to move to the next level or goal and how to attack and why. Stories are complex entities that involve character, motivation, transformations, reflection, and redemption. They are not just a series of events. Most importantly of all, stories are about the viewer and what it means to them. It’s about telling us something about ourselves. A great story reaches inside us and we leave a different person than we started. That is the true power of the story and why it’s not only survived for thousands of years, but very well may be the most important factor in the evolution of human intelligence.
A great story is like a wonderful seduction. It flirts and teases you, plays with you, confuses you, leads your imagination down tantalizing possibilities, and then pays off in a wonderful way. Stories in games tend to be more like paying a prostitute.
The real problem is no one is doing a good job of telling stories in games. Most programmers just aren’t good story tellers (see: left brain right brain), and for better or worse, they do control the creative output of this industry. Some games try and solve this problem by hiring Hollywood screen writers to do the story telling part of the game, but this only aggravates the problem since they are so entrenched in the traditional linear structure of story telling. What you usually get is just longer, better written cut-scenes, not a story that is properly woven into the interaction.
There is a very different visual and structural language needed to tell a story in an interactive and malleable environment. You can’t just lift that structure from a linear form like movies, cut it up into chucks interspersed between gun-play and call it good. As Clive points out, this is silly and doesn’t work; it’s the dreaded cut-scene.
Read all of it
It is not always easy to incorporate the story into main gameplay and not only to put it into cutscenes. Of course, the problem is the player and his stupid free will . Is there a way to make sure he will do what you want him to do? When the story is important to him, he'll probably do what you want him to. If not, then you can cheat by putting the needed item into the room so he HAS to enter if he wants to or not. Of course, thats not an elegant solution. So better make your story itneresting - and make sure its a story for a game, and not a movie. However, that is not so easy because we are all so used to the linear storystructure of movies. I guess I'm making my game a litte too linear (maybe), but its all in the hope of a good story. How about you?
Oh, what did you think of the "obsessed-fan-approach"? I think it is less of a story-"technique", but more of a way to motivate yourself, but it still has a use, apparently. Did anyone try that thoughtexperiment?
Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.
Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Error014]
#135429
06/22/07 17:57
06/22/07 17:57
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
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Hi Error, I used Angela's World as an example of a game which has only the middle(!) part of a story! I didn't mention directly that having a middle part isn't enough to get a story. It was difficult to get that because I used it as well as an example for a successful connection between the middle part of a story and gameplay. Sorry, for complicating it this way, and that I didn't make this explicit. ----- I think I already used the "obsessed-fan-approach" all the time, at least in a way that I imagined how the story/game would be summerized at a cover, in an article, by a professor etc. ------ Quote:
If you are truly wanting to make a great story (and, well, who doesn't?), then you should ahve it thought it out from the beginning. Certain turns and twists of events have to be planned from the very beginning. All actions have to make sense in light of the "final" situation
... and that's what I'm talking about: the minimum is the big arc which connects beginning and end of the story.
The question wether you can expand the story with a lot other twists, characters etc. is not wether you started with the minimum and completed it, the question is wether your story is strong enough to carry the gamers interest through a lot of gaming hours.
Take the example with the deer hunting:
When you take the idea with the two eagles, then its a weak story, more a gag than a feeling which involves you in a situation.
When you take with the idea with the prince who gives you the hidden order to realize his suicide, then can add twists without end: about the rise and fall of a kingdom, with secret and public fights in the palace, murdered princes and princesses etc.
------
"I have to get out of here, I have to get out of here, now!" (One Knight Stand)
How much finished game stories in this communities are comming to your mind? And are there any which are more complicating than this one?
All I say is, this is the minimum and its a great start, and this way it is the basis to get more. You could add to it, a lot of twists, like finding different ways to hide, different clothes to slip, joining different members of the princesses family, you can add even an end where he, finally getting out of the castle, is found by the princess who, different to what he thought about her, wasn't drunken when she met him, and actually felt in love with him. Its a comedy theme, but who doubted that it is one? You could even add a sequel where they are trying to get out of the kingdom of her father because he is against their relation, with the additional twist that the princess wants get into bed with the knight at any occasion...
EDIT:
"I have to get out of here, I have to get out of here, now!"
I actually don't know wether the story of One Knight Stand has an end, because I never reached that, but it has for sure a beginning and a middle.
"I have to get out of here" is actually a classic motiv/desire/conflict:
HL1 had it - sorry, its one of my main initial experiences that intelligent storytelling within gameplay is possible - and you can reduce it so a simple story with single elements and then see how they added twist by twist: By participating in an unsave experiment a physician enabled the uncontrolled creation of portals of an outer world, then he tried to escape this catastrophy, but has finally to discover that there isn't any escape, because the things with the portals is already part of the interests of corporations which can use such portals and their connection to the outer world as they are pleased.
(This description is still too complex for an outline of a simple story, I failed partly to re-enginiering there process of developing their story!)
About the elements of a story: Each element of a story should be a necessary part of it! (This is also a result of Aristotle's investigations in his contemporary dramatic masterpieces.) And that's achieved in a good way, if you look at an element's relation to each other element of the story, and therefor its better to begin with very few elements and then add them piece by piece.
Last edited by Pappenheimer; 06/23/07 08:53.
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#135430
06/27/07 23:53
06/27/07 23:53
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Quote:
About the elements of a story: Each element of a story should be a necessary part of it! (This is also a result of Aristotle's investigations in his contemporary dramatic masterpieces.)
Yeah, I agree. I think really related to this is what was said earlier about a story plot-twist not having consequences for the game or gameplay. You should not only tell about things that really matter for the story, but a story works best if told in a dynamic way. It's hard to explain but you should time the events at the right moments, keep things exciting by not uncovering all at once, trick like that. Also when it comes to the real cutscenes it's very important that people understand what kind of camera angles you should use in what situations. A very dramatic moment will totally be not convincing when you have the camera zoomed out a lot and don't switch from character to character whilst showing their emotions. ( a good 3dgs demo to showcase exactly what I mean is the 'Never trust stencil shadows' demo It's actually a pretty simple scene, but the camera work, the music and the other tricks applied make it an intense thing, very well done.. )
Cheers
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: PHeMoX]
#135431
06/28/07 12:40
06/28/07 12:40
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
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on cutscenes: if you've ever played KOTOR 1 or 2, the in-game cutscenes are about as bad as cutscenes get. they inform, but they don't entertain, and most of the time they look rubbish (i recall an explosion that sent NPCs sliding across the floor whilst playing their standard "stay in one spot and die" animation viewed from a static and bland camera angle).
their lack of polish put me right off those games, despite their huge success and popularity with other gamers.
julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#135432
06/28/07 14:03
06/28/07 14:03
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208 Germany
Error014
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How much finished game stories in this communities are comming to your mind? And are there any which are more complicating than this one?
So? What are you trying to tell us with this? There aren't many finished Acknexgames out there (minigames aside). Regardless of their story - even without a (real) story, most of these games try to have lots of levels, enemys, etc. - and thats where it all falls apart.
It sounds like you are suggesting to stick to simple stories, just because its unlikely for us to finish a bigger game. And while it might make it easier, we are never going to see an interesting story of an Acknexgame this way. How about the episodic approach? Make a real, interesting, good story and release chapters of parts of it.
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"I have to get out of here" is actually a classic motiv/desire/conflict:
And it was used about a zillion times in videogames, simply because it lends itself to FPS-games or games with lots of action, which is exactly what 13-year-old-boys want. But it also lends itself to stereotypes. The evil boss of the corporation that is behind it all. The lonely, super-cool actionhero. The either crazy or stupid scientist. Yawn. Been there, done that.
Quick, name a game that had a maincharacter you really, REALLY cared for! Would you answer Half-life? What do we know about Gordon Freeman? Huh? Nothing - in that game, there aren't many traits to him - its all you and what you do. A nice concept, but I think it could be more exciting to play an interesting character WITH a backstory, with feelings and emotions.
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Each element of a story should be a necessary part of it!
Which doesn't mean that every part has to directly point to the (next) conclusion. I guess nobody of you really thought that, but its worth stating it that way. Sometimes, it can be a good idea to show something only to led the player/viewer/whatever in the wrong direction, as this can be a useful way to surprise the user. See also: Red Herring (the german article is better this time..)
Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.
Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Error014]
#135433
06/28/07 14:55
06/28/07 14:55
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
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Posts: 5,900
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Oh, are you mad at me? I hope my restrictive main focus on simplifying etc. doesn't stop your creative development of your story. For creative processes, discussing is bad, because discussing is about reducing choices by getting conclusions. I missed that, I should have chosen the story-telling way of exchanging ideas. I am sorry about that. I thought my examples were entertaining, though. We all know your creativity and productivity. Let's remember the adventure serial in the Morbious forum. So, I expect much from your game. Episodic Approach You are right, creating a game with the episodic approach would be already a huge win for games of this community, and they could be a lot of fun, although they could lead into nothing, while that shouldn't bother too, because such serials often tends to never end! - - - Don't let this thread turn into an adventure versus shooter discussion. - - - Getting a new start for the exchange of ideas: What do you think about "What Makes You Tick?" as a reference? It is a short and still complicating story game. http://lassie.gmacwill.com/lower.php?section=games&page=titles&game=wmyt
Last edited by Pappenheimer; 06/28/07 14:59.
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#135434
06/28/07 15:42
06/28/07 15:42
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208 Germany
Error014
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Quote:
Oh, are you mad at me? 
Huh? Nope, I'm not. Sorry if I came across that way.
Quote:
I hope my restrictive main focus on simplifying etc. doesn't stop your creative development of your story.
No, of course not. We both have different positions on this, but thats a good thing, otherwise we couldn't discuss so nicely 
It does also depend on the game and the length of a usual "gamingsession". You can't tell a story in a game thats usually played in about 30-minute-segments the same way than in a blockbuster-three-hours-per-session-game. Maybe that is where we differ?
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For creative processes, discussing is bad,
I like to discuss certain parts or ideas of my game with other people, just so they can tell me where things don't fit, where things don't make sense, how it all comes across if you just learn about it and - most importantly - they ask questions and thus make sure that I really thought everything through. So in a way, discussing can be beneficial. But thats at a point where the basic idea is already there, before that, it might just kill any good idea that comes through (no time to refine the idea means that it is probably not "amazing" yet, leading many to use old ideas that we have seen before). Still, before one finishes it, one should discuss it.
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Don't let this thread turn into an adventure versus shooter discussion.
Have I done that? I'm sorry if I did, that wasn't my intention.
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Let's remember the adventure serial in the Morbious forum.
Hah, that one was mainly to improve my (still super-poor) drawing skills. Have you noticed? The thread is gone. Just like my "Humble beginnings"-thread. Well, so much for that!
(Also thanks for looking forward to my game )
Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.
Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: JibbSmart]
#135435
06/28/07 17:12
06/28/07 17:12
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
on cutscenes: if you've ever played KOTOR 1 or 2, the in-game cutscenes are about as bad as cutscenes get. they inform, but they don't entertain, and most of the time they look rubbish (i recall an explosion that sent NPCs sliding across the floor whilst playing their standard "stay in one spot and die" animation viewed from a static and bland camera angle).
their lack of polish put me right off those games, despite their huge success and popularity with other gamers.
julz
Yeah, I never understood that either, not many magazines ever even mentioned the horrible cutscenes, especially part 2 should have gotten lower scores because of that. They even had a bigger budget, but it turned into a total rush-job benefiting from the hype..
Still, I do think both games are very good games, I really enjoyed playing them, but they totally had their weak spots,
Cheers
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Re: How to tell your story
[Re: PHeMoX]
#135436
06/28/07 19:00
06/28/07 19:00
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815 Finland
Inestical
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Posts: 3,815
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hmm.. Can't be sure, but hasn't this thread gone into critising games done already? Red Herrings: Parts, objects, stories, scenes or other like that isn't important for the story. God how I hate them in Room Escape games  Importances: Every word you say in the game will affect the player into the conclusion on what has happened. Also you can make them lie, but you must reveal it before the credits. At least I haven't seen "Sorry, but the NPC #1337 lied. The bad guy was NPC #42, not NPC #69, Game Over, sucks to be you." in the ending schemes.. I agree about KOTOR cutscenes, boring as hell. Use of cutscenes is ment to entertain people. IMHO I play every FF games because of three reasons: The Characters, The Story and The CG Cutscenes =)
"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
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