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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138179
06/30/07 05:19
06/30/07 05:19
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
padrino
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
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Quote:
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evolution is quite more complicated than acknex6 -.-
correct. however this fact only makes the concept of evolution more vague. If a computer program cannot evolve into something else then it is even infinetley more impossible to believe that something as complicated as a livng cell can evolve. One lving cell is more complicated than any computer, software, or any man made machine in existence.
and that is exactly why they can change. because they are way more complex and can do so much more
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138182
06/30/07 12:45
06/30/07 12:45
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Quote:
The Christian belief is that this degeneration, called "genetic entropy" is the result of the curse God put on man in the garden of Eden. The Christian beleif states that the original Adam had perfect dna which only began to deteriorate after man's sin.
First of all you should say, the Christian comunity I belong to, beleive...
The official position of the Catholic Church, being evolutionism...
I suppose that God extended his curse also to animals and plants , even the ones living in the deep sea or in the middle of the Amazonian forest , which never came in contact with human beings, since it is evident that also their dna is not perfect
Apart from that
What you said about the mutations of genoma is correct but the conclusions are the direct opposite
Forget for a while the evidences of the fossils which are clearly in favour of evolution
Forget also that isolated localities have poorly efficient species
Many australian animals could not survive outside Australia , being quite primitive
Let's stick to the common sense
It is hard to beleive , I must admit it , in a step by step evolution but you can provide also some logic explanations
lets consider the wings of birds for example
An initial small protuberation was, for sure, of no use as far as locomotion is concerned but it could work as a sort of radiator for temperature control
What about the opposite ?
Do you beleive in the survival of the unfittists ?
I dont think so
Do you mean, that God has programmed our DNA to get worse and worse, step by step ?
If so, do you realize that he commited the worst crime ?
Adam and Eva , who commited the sin remained almost perfect people while their innocent sons must suffer for any kind of deseases
Last edited by AlbertoT; 06/30/07 12:46.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: Tobias]
#138183
06/30/07 12:49
06/30/07 12:49
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Joined: Mar 2003
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This is evolution at work. I learned in biology that every person has about 2 mutation in his genome so we all are mutants!
I think your high school teacher was a little off: some estimates
These are point mutations. Als0 a Russian researcher named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Kondrashov has estimated in 2002 that the deletions plus insertions occur at rates of 4-12% of point mutations(so about 2-6% each). However, he seemed to limit his estimates to only small inserts and deletions. Because mutations and insertions can be very large, their total effect is believed to be 3-10 times greater in quantity than point mutations giving as possibility of 300-3000 more nucleotides changed.
check through thsi article to see the difference between various mutation types such as point mutations, satellite mutations, insertions, deletions, inversions, translocations, and conversions. However wikipedia should always be looked at with caution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
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I think evolution happens quite fast.
Well evolutionary theory seems to be fast or slow, depending upon what evolutionists need it to be. Of course, pure Darwinism parallels evolution with enviromental changes steadily over time. However, in the alleged evolution of man they believe it was quite fast because of evidences radiometric dating of cave paintings? First I believe that those estimates between 10-50000 years are largely guesswork, its too difficult to judge radiometric decay at those rela tively short periods. Also there is nothing saying that the bones and relics found are evn that of mankind at all. Third, in oreder to have evolutionary divergence from the chimp require high rates of chromosonal rearrangements and inter-genic conversions at a rate which would be in the thousands per generation, which would endanger the human genome much much worse than what I have been outlining so far.
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example the famous Milano mutation
I have already discussed this on this forum, here is the article which I have read: web page
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138184
06/30/07 13:07
06/30/07 13:07
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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First of all you should say, the Christian comunity I belong to, beleive...
The official position of the Catholic Church, being evolutionism...
No, I said correctly. Any Catholic who believes the Bible is a Christian, if a Catholic does not believe the Bible then I do not know what he is but he is not a Christian.
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I suppose that God extended his curse also to animals and plants , even the ones living in the deep sea or in the middle of the Amazonian forest , which never came in contact with human beings, since it is evident that also their dna is not perfect
Yes he cursed everything everywhere, the entire earth. Here is the entire curse from the Bible:
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And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
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Forget for a while the evidences of the fossils which are clearly in favour of evolution
LOL. I beg to differ. 
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Forget also that isolated localities have poorly efficient species
Many australian animals could not survive outside Australia , being quite primitive
Dont get me wrong, I belive that natural selection and survival of the fittest are true facts. I dont dispute that at all. A species will adapt to its environment based upon its existing gene pool. The question is: How did the gene pool get there to begin with?
The Christian belief is that God created creatures after their own kind :
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Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.
So there is no problem that creatures in australia might not survive anywhere else because they have used their existing gene pool to adapt to their environments.
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An initial small protuberation was, for sure, of no use as far as locomotion is concerned but it could work as a sort of radiator for temperature control
This is where the fossil record is severely lacking. There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.
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Do you mean, that God has programmed our DNA to get worse and worse, step by step ?
If so, do you realize that he commited the worst crime ?
Adam and Eva , who commited the sin remained almost perfect people while their innocent sons must suffer for any kind of deseases
Crime is judged relative to our moral framework perhaps, but relative to God's moral framework then the judgement fits the crime.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138185
06/30/07 13:16
06/30/07 13:16
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,140
Baunatal, Germany
Tobias
Moderator
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Moderator
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,140
Baunatal, Germany
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No, this is not the Christian belief. The majority of Christians do not believe that God committed crimes as mentioned in the bible, or cursed his creation, killed millions by a flood and so on. I see that your sect believes this and thats fine, but you can not claim that this is what Christians believe.
Christian belief is based on the bible, but not on your extreme interpretation of the bible that culminates in rejecting evolution and believing God cursed and killed his creation.
BTW the page you gave for Milano mutation is a religious page, but even that one confirms what I said. Evolution is beneficial and improves the genome. Or what did you want to prove with posting the page?
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138187
06/30/07 13:26
06/30/07 13:26
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,140
Baunatal, Germany
Tobias
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,140
Baunatal, Germany
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but not on your extreme interpretation of the bible
Tobias, dont get angry...its not an extreme interpretation its a literal interpretation. Wouldnt you agree?
Why angry? But your wrong, your interpretation is anything but Christan or literal. Its a very narrow extreme and essentially un-Christian bible interpretation. Or dont you think that a view of our God as a killer and mass murderer is a little extreme?
If you understand the bible literally than you must understand how the stories were meant. They are not meant to depict God as a killer, but are tales with moral and poetic background. Of course they are meant literally but are meant as stories and not as historic record. I mean come on, not even people back then believed that Adam and Eve were real people. God cursed and killed no one.
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