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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138208
06/30/07 20:50
06/30/07 20:50
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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. Quote:
There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.
Yes there are
Inner ear , for example
Fossils clearly shows that auditive system is an evolution of the jaw
A simple vibrating thin blade attached to the jaw, at the beginning, but capable of trasmitting some signal to the animal
Last edited by AlbertoT; 06/30/07 20:51.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138209
07/01/07 15:13
07/01/07 15:13
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
There are no fossils showing clearcut transitionals. There actually should be MORE transitional fossils than their are fully formed archetypicals.
You're right and really these exist all around you, just in your view that evidence apparently 'is not good enough', it's still evidence though. Their are dozens and dozens of species with rudimentary morphological features for example wales their rudimentary hind limbs.
Cheers
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: PHeMoX]
#138210
07/01/07 21:33
07/01/07 21:33
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
Expert
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
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Quote:
Tobias, dont get angry...its not an extreme interpretation its a literal interpretation. Wouldnt you agree?
The Christian method of Biblical interpretation is simply to read the Bible for what it says. It is not a method of interpretation at all. I read it literally. Its very simple.
Anyone who does not accept the Bible at face value is not a Christian. Thats also very simple.
As the Pope and the Catholic Church have accepted evolution for some times, according to you they are not Christian? Pretty extreme I'd say. On the other hand, maybe YOU are not Christian, but some kind of lunatic.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138211
07/01/07 21:38
07/01/07 21:38
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Luther was in no way a literalist in the sense, that he simply took the Bible and believed everything in it. Actually he had a very personal taste and strong opinion about the different parts. Here are some Luther-quotes: Quote:
"I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much."
"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible."
"Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it"
"About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1, ‘You shall be my witnesses.’ Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely"
web page
The dogmatic approach, that everything in the Bible is scientific or historic fact is a genuine American invention and in my view a defense mechanism and strategy of survival against the sceptical and materialist mood in the late 19th / early 20th century, when suddenly everything was put into question.
Unfortunately it leads into countless contradictions and worse: intolerance, war, misery.
A more serious approach of course makes a difference between God (infallible) and man-made scriptures and attempts in general.
There are countless hints in the Bible, that one must read it in a spiritual way, searching for the meaning behind the words and in the end for the abstract meaning itself.
This is far from simple, there is no simple rule of thumb: one text is a metaphor another one a clear commandment etc.
If people are now dicussing the Genesis as a materialist or scientific description, they are in danger to miss or downplay the spiritual meaning of the text.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#138212
07/01/07 23:27
07/01/07 23:27
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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Quote:
As the Pope and the Catholic Church have accepted evolution for some times, according to you they are not Christian? Pretty extreme I'd say. On the other hand, maybe YOU are not Christian, but some kind of lunatic.
It doesnt matter to me what Luther or the Pope or anyone else says. Jesus Himself, as well as the the other apostles and paul accepted the Old Testament at literal fact as is cross referenced in their own writings. They are the founders of Christianity, so therefore they would decide the doctrine.
Also labels matter very little to me. Christian means "Christ follower", and I follow the teachings of Christ, not the Pope, and Christ accepted Noah and creation, as well as the reality of hell, satan, the afterlife,and salvation.
My interpretation of the Bible is plain and literal, if you want to call me a lunatic, or unchristian, stupid, or whatever that is your perogative. I am glad at least that you say what is on your mind without pretense.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138214
07/02/07 07:32
07/02/07 07:32
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
padrino
User
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User
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
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Quote:
Quote:
As the Pope and the Catholic Church have accepted evolution for some times, according to you they are not Christian? Pretty extreme I'd say. On the other hand, maybe YOU are not Christian, but some kind of lunatic.
It doesnt matter to me what Luther or the Pope or anyone else says. Jesus Himself, as well as the the other apostles and paul accepted the Old Testament at literal fact as is cross referenced in their own writings. They are the founders of Christianity, so therefore they would decide the doctrine.
Also labels matter very little to me. Christian means "Christ follower", and I follow the teachings of Christ, not the Pope, and Christ accepted Noah and creation, as well as the reality of hell, satan, the afterlife,and salvation.
My interpretation of the Bible is plain and literal, if you want to call me a lunatic, or unchristian, stupid, or whatever that is your perogative. I am glad at least that you say what is on your mind without pretense.
show me where jesus himself says that there is no evolution
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: NITRO777]
#138215
07/02/07 11:47
07/02/07 11:47
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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The problems come up, because people believe or wish, that the truth is simple and can - more or less easily and once and for all - be defined with words.
This is the basic assumption for people, who think, that God (mysterious infallible Spirit) and Bible (words, written down by non-perfect humans) are more or less identical or at least the belief, that knowledge of old scripture is identical with knowledge about the intentions of the living God.
There is not even inner logic, that supports the claim of biblical infallibility, because St Paul and others themselves did not claim to be perfect. They expressed a desire for perfection as a distant goal, not as an attribute, they already possessed.
And it is funny, that many atheists are taking this false belief at face value, when they also confuse God with the Bible, claiming, that there can be no God, because the people, who lived thousands of years ago were unable to deliver a simple "user manual" of eternal value.
But God != Bible.
God is love, God is Spirit, God is Truth.
Well, at least these are some basic ideas.
The search for God is just a more or less humble attempt, to understand the whole. And given our enormous (and potentially destructive) worldly power this is more important now, than ever before.
Serious religion should be an attempt to define and eventually redefine and find words for divine laws.
God can´t be touched by human opinions, certainly not by those, who try to reduce Him or confuse Him, with human attempts.
Science can only bring us closer to God, it can´t contradict God.
This is btw. confirmed in the Bible time and again.
The Bible doesn´t say: Worship me, the book, that you can touch and see.
And even the most "conservative" passage, that I was able to find in the gospels does not tell us to follow the scripture like slaves or robots:
5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place.
5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Now up to here it is like the confirmation for the "literalists" ...
But it goes on:
5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(from the gospel of Matthew)
In other words: We are always allowed to do better and if someone knows Jesus own attitude towards the scribes and the Pharisees, there is even a necessity to go beyond ...
The important thing is: we should be guided by the Holy Spirit, which - according to the gospel of John is a Spirit of truth.
And if someone knows and understands the supreme importance of the Holy Spirit, there should no longer be any doubt:
12:31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Strong words! While we are allowed to go beyond the righteousness of the "experts in law" (as expressed in the Bible) we will be in great trouble if we decide to go against the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth.
St Paul expresses it like this:
Galatians 5:18: But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The truth makes us free!
For me it is simply like this:
Our knowledge and mankinds collective experience isn´t static, it is constantly growing. And if we want to be guided by the Spirit of truth we can not simply ignore this.
Jesus was aware of this, he said (according to John):
16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
So even Jesus, our Messiah, Saviour, etc., even He did not say:
I told you everything, all you need is the Bible ...
It is very important to search for the living God, to recognize the importance of love and truth and to keep in mind, that God is great!
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: Robotronic]
#138216
07/02/07 14:33
07/02/07 14:33
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
And it is funny, that many atheists are taking this false belief at face value, when they also confuse God with the Bible, claiming, that there can be no God, because the people, who lived thousands of years ago were unable to deliver a simple "user manual" of eternal value.
Well, it's not so much about the bible as a user manual, but more so about descriptions of events which either can't have happened or simply contradict other events. This is both confusing and suspicious, because obviously they can't both be right.
If the bible is wrong about a lot of things, why would it still be right about God? Why would it still be right about Jesus? I think those two questions are perfectly fine to ask when indeed you notice flaws in a scripture people claim is 'the one and only truth'.
I think that although most atheists indeed tend to take both the bible and god in one hand, that we do understand that it's not entirely the same.
Still if all Christians at one point say, 'okey fine, you've proven the Bible is wrong or at least has many errors and some big contradictions', then they will still say 'ha, but ya didn't really disprove our God!'.
In my opinion eventhough they're right in saying this, all they really are doing is back paddling, desperately trying to hold on to something ...
I think ID is a good example of were that kind of behavior leads to.
Cheers
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: PHeMoX]
#138217
07/02/07 17:40
07/02/07 17:40
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
Well, it's not so much about the bible as a user manual, but more so about descriptions of events which either can't have happened or simply contradict other events. This is both confusing and suspicious, because obviously they can't both be right.
Well, what obviously should be avoided is an approach, where you take the next best quote from the Bible and say: "That´s it, this must be the will of God", or "It´s written in the Bible, so it must have really happened".
How would a judge determine the "truth", if there is a lawyer and a prosecutor, who usually describe the same event in a very different way ...
The answer: It´s a lot of work.
You have to look at the evidence, you have to compare, you are by no way limited to the Bible. Avoid preconceptions and personal taste, try to be a good judge, imagine the context.
For me it would be much more suspicious, if everything would be "polished" and "perfect". I believe, that God was gradually discovered by REAL human beings at a REAL time and space. A later prophet can compare, what was revealed to him with his predecessors and can build upon the knowledge and see, if it still makes sense etc.
Only the individual human being, that reads the text can gradually decide, which attempts are better and which attempts are false.
And btw: If I assume, that God is the Spirit of everything, it is only logical to assume, that such a Spirit is big and not easy to discover or understand.
Quote:
If the bible is wrong about a lot of things, why would it still be right about God? Why would it still be right about Jesus?
Well is it right about God? In my view: sometimes it is, sometimes it isn´t.
But God - over many years - became a certainty for me not only because of the Bible, but because of everything. I wasn´t religious for thirty years of my life, until something happened, which is described in the Bible like this:
Isaiah 65:1
I made myself available to those who did not ask for me;
I appeared to those who did not look for me.
God revealed His spirit to me - an absolute ignorant to all religious stuff - in seven days in 1997.
Once you have found a Spirit, that is absolute, perfect, good, indestructible, free from contradiction it must be God.
This Spirit btw. is inside everyone - it is your soul - and it wants to be discovered. In a mystic condition, there is some kind of identity.
The search for oneself and the search for God are one and the same.
If I wouldn´t have found this Spirit in the Bible, I would certainly have a less favorable opinion about this book.
Quote:
Still if all Christians at one point say, 'okey fine, you've proven the Bible is wrong or at least has many errors and some big contradictions', then they will still say 'ha, but ya didn't really disprove our God!'.
In my opinion eventhough they're right in saying this, all they really are doing is back paddling, desperately trying to hold on to something ...
Nope, I think, they are either less concerned about the Bible than you and me, or they will like so many other people simply ignore, what they don´t like.
I mean, come on - who does really believe in a version of God, who tells His people to go out for some mass-murder.
Everyone with an inch of grain will assume, that Moses, or whoever received such a message was eventually misled by a different Spirit and one should also keep in mind, that certain passages reflect a generally more archaic athmosphere.
There is a famous Sura in the Qur´an btw, where Mohammed received a message, which he later attributed to Satan, and which was consequently removed from the book: the famous Satanic Verses.
Try to imagine, you´re a prophet and live in 900 BC and all your tribesmen have just escaped from the stone-age, you probably will not discuss with them about the latest divine trends, such as equal rights for chickens, you will start to tell them, that eventually they do not need to murder themselves all the time and such stuff.
An elegant solution is: Thou shall not kill! - because it leaves room for future updates and maybe one day even chickens will be included in the divine covenant.
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