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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: PHeMoX]
#138228
07/06/07 07:52
07/06/07 07:52
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
No, that's not what I meant. It's not about the mistakes at all, it's about the noticeable effects of modern medicine, it actually works, where as for example prayers or whatever 'effective' aspect of religion, you just can't say íf it works at all. Why pray or believe when the effect is unknown? It's what totally makes the entire belief in religion irrelevant.
I donīt know, but most people believe, that human beings, both individuals and groups are heavily influenced not only by medicine and the laws of gravity, but also by ideas, ideologies, belief-systems, role-models, idols, propaganda, communication, what they learn in school, what is considered to be "normal" ...
It is like this: if one very complex system (the human mind) is confronted with another complex system (for example a movie, a book, a theory, an ideology, a faith system) one canīt make exact predictions: different human beings will always react in a different way.
Well, it is obvious, that religion has inspired billions of people in many different and noticeable ways.
For me it is more or less a miracle, that so many people say: we believe in an undefined, invisible being (?), we follow the teachings of someone (Jesus, Mohammed, Moses ...), who lived thousands of years ago, we build churches, we pray, we try to be nice, we follow rituals ...
Religions inspire and influence the human minds. And the human minds usually direct our actions, makes us speak etc ...
In this sense religion - like ideas, opinions, books, theories, ideologies - will produce visible effects, but these effects are of course less predictable then in mathematics or programming for example.
Thatīs because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.
Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject and the human mind is very complex too.
We are not like simple minded dead robots, which react in a pre-programmed and predictable way.
We are alive, we can make choices!
And if you say, religion is "irrelevant", just because the effects are less predictable, you could say the same about music, literature, movies, almost everything, that is more complex, than program code ...
You donīt want to transform the human species into robots, do you ?!
Are you aware of the complexity of the human mind?
Itīs fine, that you accept medicine and worldly sciences, so letīs start with the possibilities and the structure of the human brain:
In an old magazine (german edition of "Scientific American") a brain researcher once made an interesting analogy:
There are "just" ca. 10^82 elementary particles in the known universe.
There are - at least - ca. 10^3000 possible functional states of the human brain .
10^12 neurons, each one can theoretically pass or receive information from 10.000 other neurons, forming the very complex neural network.
This 10^3000 btw. is just the minimum, more recent research suggests, that also the so called glia-cells (white matter) play a "computational" role, then there is neurogenesis (new neurons can grow and become part of the existing neuronal network) ...
Our brain is very, very, very complex.
The actual "strength" of the human brain and mind is not simple causal operations - like in programming - but we are able to do far more complex stuff: the development of ideas, assumptions, emotions, understanding, awareness ...
And the quality of effects of religion will depend on the amount of reason that we apply to this subject, the depth of understanding, the desire, the individual ability of imagination, the seriousness of the efforts, the depth of emotions ...
So I wouldnīt say, that you can sell or buy this in a supermarket.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: Robotronic]
#138229
07/06/07 19:03
07/06/07 19:03
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
Serious User
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Quote:
Thatīs because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.
Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject
I quote (by heart) Galileo from the " Dialogo dei massimi sistemi"
" I have alwayes admired people who have achieved small but concrete results rather than those ones who have been talking all their life long about complex subjects and never came to any conclusion "
Philosophy is not a complex subject
If you read the masterpieces of the , so called , "great thinkers " you find in general , with some exception of course, either common sense (Kant for example )wrapped with difficult words or pure fantasy but great literature (Egels for example)
Just science can cast a light on the mistery of life
That said ,I dont mean that science supports "Atehism"
Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138230
07/06/07 19:34
07/06/07 19:34
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
Well, it is obvious, that religion has inspired billions of people in many different and noticeable ways.
For me it is more or less a miracle, that so many people say: we believe in an undefined, invisible being (?), we follow the teachings of someone (Jesus, Mohammed, Moses ...), who lived thousands of years ago, we build churches, we pray, we try to be nice, we follow rituals ...
That's not a miracle, that's just the effects of masses being influenced throughout time together with the overall ignorance of certain discoveries and knowledge. If everybody knew a lot more about evolution, the number of people believing in a religion would clearly be less, perhaps even close to zero. It's no surprise that people in 3rd world countries for example have a huge percentage of believers (regardless of which religion).
Quote:
Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)
That's quite a claim  , can you give an example what is in favor of religion? Out the top of my head I wouldn't know even just óne discovery which might be in favor of religion..
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And the quality of effects of religion will depend on the amount of reason that we apply to this subject, the depth of understanding, the desire, the individual ability of imagination, the seriousness of the efforts, the depth of emotions ...
There's no understanding possible when it comes to fictive ideas. I think you underestimate the human mind and it's curiosity and it's somewhat "simple" solutions to fill gaps of knowledge. It's possible (and not thát difficult) to trick the brain, in fact, sometimes the brain even allows to be fooled even if it knows it's wrong or likely to be wrong. That's definitely the case when it comes to religion, because there's no way in knowing if it's correct! The more you think about it, the more you will discover it's just an idea to have a solution for ancient problems, some which are already solved by science. There's nothing more to it.
Remember that just because religions exist it doesn't mean one of them HAS to be right, they can easily be all wrong. I think it's by far the most likely that they are all wrong.
Also science isn't always right either, but at least it's able to adapt to new knowledge and experience. Religions usually can't, won't or have a hard time doing so. Why? It's all about Power and Influence.
Quote:
Thatīs because mathematics is so very simple, it usually follows well defined rules.
Now religion on the other hand is a very large and complex subject
Religion follows a similar system of rules actually, but it's far far less complex. I think that's why not many people understand that, they expect it to be extremely complex, but it's not.
Cheers
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138232
07/06/07 20:35
07/06/07 20:35
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
The big bang
Even Einstein, who despite a common beleif was an atheist , introduced a constant in its equation to "force" the universe to be stable but he had to admit that it was a mistake
True, but to understand systems, you have to simplify them. I admit though that this is a weak point, but does this work in favor of religion? I don't think so.
Quote:
Conscience
At the beginning of the computer era everybody assumed that the difference between an artificial brain and a real brain was in term of number and type of neurons
But it is not like that
I'm definitely going to look into this since I don't know much about this when it comes to scientific opinions, but I though the consensus on this is still that we haven't found 'our soul' yet, so again, no evidence in favor of religion.
Quote:
Evolution can explain a lot of things but the DNA of the simplest form of life is so complex that " pure chance" is absolutly out of question
Selection is not chance, it doesn't happen by pure chance anyways. Besides, where science doesn't have an answer yet, doesn't mean it's in favor of religion. Still, off course, science has not figured out the primordial soup problem just yet.
Those were 3 good issues, but in my opinion not really anything that works in favor of religion,
Cheers
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: PHeMoX]
#138233
07/07/07 16:34
07/07/07 16:34
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
That's not a miracle, that's just the effects of masses being influenced throughout time together with the overall ignorance of certain discoveries and knowledge.
Come on, if it would be just a matter of the "inability" of people to resist powerful propaganda: why did people then turn away from communism???
Why did they return - in Russia for example - to religion after the fall of the Soviet Union, where religion was more or less outlawed???
Actually religion has survived countless ideologies, kingdoms, empires - they all disappeared, religion however remains.
Quote:
If everybody knew a lot more about evolution, the number of people believing in a religion would clearly be less
So here we are: for you (and creationists) religion stands and falls with the little story in the Christian Bible, that tells us, that God created everything in six days.
Thatīs fine, but you confuse bibliolatry and religion and most religious people have no problems with science.
I like science, a proper understanding of the material world for example, historic research, all of this helps me to understand the whole even better.
And on the other hand, many scientists, who are not simple-minded reductionists realise, that there is a huge complex world outside their specific area of research.
To give you a modern point of view, which I share:
"Science's domain is to explore nature. God's domain is in the spiritual world, a realm not possible to explore with the tools and language of science. It must be examined with the heart, the mind, and the soul - and the mind must find a way to embrace both realms."
the science of belief
This is a quote from a new book, "The Language of God", written by Francis S. Collins, the man who headed the Human Genome Project.
I see it in a similar way: modern science is far more reliable, when it comes to hard facts and especially the exploration of the natural world.
Religion on the other hand deals with often very distant goals, questions of right and wrong, good and evil, human relations ...
Quote:
There's no understanding possible when it comes to fictive ideas. [...]
That's definitely the case when it comes to religion, because there's no way in knowing if it's correct!
There is not only one religion and it is very well possible, to believe in certain parts, while rejecting others. And many of the "fictive ideas" turn out to be metaphors, parabels etc., so you donīt have to take them as descriptions of real events.
My impression is, you have been indoctrinated by the fundamentalists here ... 
I canīt deliver you a "proof" for God, he isnīt a well defined piece of matter, that can be found and explored under a microscope, I also do not need any miracles and such stuff, so in this sense Iīm a very bad Christian. But I donīt think, that one has to believe in miracles, I think the miracles are there especially for the simple-minded, for children, in order to attract them, so that they too find access to the more spiritual message.
In this sense there is an interesting quote from St. Paul (Korinthians):
3:1 So, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but instead as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
3:2 I fed you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready. In fact, you are still not ready ...
"I fed you milk, not solid food" - you see, that St. Paul was very aware of the spiritual limitations of his audience.
The Bible certainly "speaks" to very different people and the miracles are for me like the 1st century version of modern-day Special FX. They are there to impress the simple-minded and attract them to the more abstract and difficult parts.
This is probably the difference between our approaches: for me many passages from the Bible simply reflect real conditions, a real audience - maybe not all of them were philosophers, maybe some were little children ... and the preachers had to take this into account.
But there are also other more meaningful parts, which still can tell me a lot and so this does not prevent me anymore from searching and finding the truth, which is in no way limited by and sometimes contradicts the texts from the Bible.
So in my view it is important to discover the Spirit and I donīt say, that it is easy.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: AlbertoT]
#138234
07/07/07 17:18
07/07/07 17:18
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
Just science can cast a light on the mistery of life
The scientific methods are exact, thatīs fine, but as long as they donīt come up with a formula for the meaning of words like "love" or "truth", I would not rely on science so much, when it comes to human life. Biological life maybe, but certainly not spiritual life and the infinite possibilities of the human mind.
Quote:
That said ,I dont mean that science supports "Atehism"
Some recent scientific discoveries are actually in favour of religion I mean that the rest is just bla...bla...( dengerous bla..bla...)
I really canīt understand, why people see science and religion in some sort of competition. I mean, scientific discoveries have here and there been at odds with certain claims in certain religious books, but I donīt need science in order to find out, that not everything in a man-made book comes from God.
Actually science and religion should be in perfect harmony, because they both claim, to search for the truth.
But we live in strange times.
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: Robotronic]
#138236
07/09/07 21:41
07/09/07 21:41
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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All I'm saying is the more you know about life, the universe and everything through science the more religions have no choice but to become more abstract to keep their heads above the water when it comes to facts and truths, it's like you said, now it's already; "no, no, it's meant metaphorical" etc. That's actually back paddling at best, considering the facts and what people used to believe in in the past. Don't get me wrong, I'm okey with abstract religions, I'm okey with religious people accepting science, they don't exclude eachother. It does seem like a 'cheap escape' to me, although yes I have to admit that a lot of what's written in the bible is quite cryptic, far too cryptic to have been meant literal in the first place. Off course, this is assuming that there still is some original ancient content left, when it comes to complete sentences and the actual way it was written down, Quote:
I beleive in facts only , while I am afraid of emotional people
I'm not afraid of emotional people at all, but a belief based upon emotion does create a breeding ground for extremists and fundamentalists. Those people can have potentially dangerous ideas, but only a handful are a real threat.
Cheers
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Re: Kann es Evolution geben?????
[Re: PHeMoX]
#138237
07/10/07 15:04
07/10/07 15:04
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
All I'm saying is the more you know about life, the universe and everything through science the more religions have no choice but to become more abstract to keep their heads above the water when it comes to facts and truths, it's like you said, now it's already; "no, no, it's meant metaphorical" etc. That's actually back paddling at best, considering the facts and what people used to believe in in the past.
Well, I have no problems with facts, but of course some religious people seem to have such problems and the "evolutionists vs creationists" - debate is just the most obvious example. But I make a difference - and this is very important - between the message of the prophets and the actual behaviour of (mostly worldly-minded) believers.
And also my approach to the prophets is not: They are infallible, I must follow them, even if reason or love tell me something completely different. Time has changed, and of course we often do much better, than the archaic people, who lived 3000 years ago. It would be crazy to go back and imitate them.
On the other hand I donīt see, that modern lifestyle has always the best solution.
For me there is no back paddling at all and I think Jesus Christ and other prophets would welcome an abstract spiritual understanding of many Biblical texts. They were in fact often complaining about their worldly-minded audience.
But the Bible is a big book and different parts require a different approach. Some parts can only be understood, if you know other parts, so I would look for inner logic and a direction, a development of the ideas, I always try to imagine the context of the time ...
There is not one simple, single rule that can catch all situations.
But I keep it short here, this thread was intended to be another "evolutionists vs creationists" - debate, for me this is all very strange, because I donīt believe, that God can be found in the fossils ...
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