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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#182438
02/07/08 16:20
02/07/08 16:20
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,012 germany, dresden
ulf
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The quality of their demos (also user demos) is way supererior. Why is this the case? I am not completetely sure. Maybe because of the ease of use and artist-friendly tool-set of this package or just because of the higher prices of their contests: Prizes: 3500 EURO + Quest3D 4.0 Power Edition + T-Shirt
i think you got the point perfectly, if i had a team that could produce aaa art wich contest should i take part in? the one that offers 300$ (200€) or one that offers 3500€? no one who is capable of doing 'good' stuff would 'waste' time producing a demo, that looks good for the possibility of 300$ - while he could make a game at the same time that will get him much more reputation and money in return. or take part in a contest where he could earn 17 x more money, thats just simple math.
i just visited the site you posted and my first impression was this is an engine for visualisation not for making games.
take the last a7 looks good contest, not really many entries and most of the did not even stick to the 'demo' rules. but george let them all in - because they were the only ones. if the rules where strict, i guess there would be only 1 or 2 entries to chose from. also i guess that most projects where not really aimed for this contest and took part just because the time was right.
lets say conitec decided to make a contest running till the end of the year offering ~3000€ to the winning team. this would for shure bring much more people to this forum working on demos. this could improve the workflow also if more people demand the same things... and even bring new features for 'good looking' stuff. maybe its time for conitec to think about it and attract even more people with this kind of contest instead of the 4x small contests a year.
the main thing is that 3dgs is aimed towards easy creation of 3d games (shooters) thats where it evolved from and thats how conitecs marketing works. it will never be the best rendering engine in the field. but you can make games with it, that look at least a little bit good - if you know what you are doing.
Last edited by ulf; 02/07/08 16:22.
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#182439
02/07/08 16:34
02/07/08 16:34
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134 Netherlands
Joozey
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We could easy set up a demo which represents AI, physics, shaders, online mode, shadows and other great plus points about the A6 and A7 engine. [...] this would work if someone had the time to set it up Btw, nice topic Joozey ^^
Thanx and wheres your avatar ^^. It's not really that easy to set up a demo with all the plus points. The demo should still be original, and more creative than all the other standard demos on the web if you want to show that our engine is standing out (and not graphics wise, that's another issue). If we take physics for example: how many people have made a 2 wheel bike that worked? I can't remember anyone did... sure it's possible, but yet nobody has got it to work yet. In fact, the only one I know who works on it is ISG. There are lot's of things that seem easy to make, but when you start making it, it actually seems rather hard.
I do think that this is the reason why there is no stunning demo featuring all neat things of the engine. We think it's an easy task when you talk about it, but we get stuck when we try, get bored, and quit . There is one cure: See ulf's reply 
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So if you ask me: A good demo needs both: a good coder and a good artist at the same time plus someone creating sounds and music. This is not a one-man show and not a playground for coders.
No matter how much I agree on you, I said "average graphics" because there are more programmers than artists here. We can't all create beautiful medieval houses to use in our games, and theres nothing to do about it. But that doesn't mean we can not (try to) create fun and great demo's for our engine. Average graphics should really be good enough in combination with a creative and fun game.
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the more I think about it, the more I find that I already showed others, because I'm somehow proud of 3DGS!
I forgot that option in the poll "nothing, 3dgs has plenty great demos already!". I agree on this one a little as well. But still, I'd like to see more 2d games like angelas world .
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Btw, Frank and Jostie did help me on parts of the XSPire demo.
Didn't even realize anymore I did, but yeah, it was fun creating a level ^^. All in all I better stick to programming heheh.
Last edited by Joozey; 02/07/08 16:37.
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Joozey]
#182440
02/07/08 17:26
02/07/08 17:26
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121 Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
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Quote:
We can't all create beautiful medieval houses to use in our games, and theres nothing to do about it.
No. There is much to do about it. Building a team, attracting artists with your knowledge, buying quality art-assets or just learning how to model it yourself.
Just to give you an example: I started to work with 3dgs as a pure programmer. I just modelled contents because I needed it for my dream-project. Now I started to like it more than the programming job. But I had the chance to experience both jobs and I know that both are hard and real work. So I know for sure, that I cannot do all that on my own. That is, why I started to work on a prototype with Fogman. We can help each other and can concentrate on different aspects of the project. But I also could claim that I can do all that by myself, arrogant and ignorant. But I am sure now, that this would fail miserably even with a small casual game project.
Just look at the best of the contest projects, HeelX contribution. Some of you know that he did not make it alone. But you see that it became fantastic because of this.
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#182441
02/07/08 17:36
02/07/08 17:36
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
The quality of their demos (also user demos) is way supererior. Why is this the case? I am not completetely sure. Maybe because of the ease of use and artist-friendly tool-set of this package or just because of the higher prices of their contests: Prizes: 3500 EURO + Quest3D 4.0 Power Edition + T-Shirt
You seem to forget that the Quest3D engine has a whole different customer base. Generally those people can program very well and a lot of them seem to be semi-professionals compared to the 3DGS's customer base. It's apples and oranges, so obviously the demos aren't comparable either. I think there are talented people here, but from the way I see it, this community isn't at their level of experience and competence by far. I'm not saying all those demos would be easily possible to make with 3DGS and run at acceptable speeds, but perhaps some would.
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pay for a good demo or announce higher prices to attract little studios.
I don't think either of those options will work very well, because even for little studios it's the engine that matters most.
Cheers
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#182442
02/07/08 17:46
02/07/08 17:46
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,012 germany, dresden
ulf
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Quote:
You seem to forget that the Quest3D engine has a whole different customer base. Generally those people can program very well and a lot of them seem to be semi-professionals compared to the 3DGS's customer base. It's apples and oranges, so obviously the demos aren't comparable either. I think there are talented people here, but from the way I see it, this community isn't at their level of experience and competence by far. I'm not saying all those demos would be easily possible to make with 3DGS and run at acceptable speeds, but perhaps some would.
just ran the quest3d contest demo winner and i would say its safe to say that this thing could be done with 3dgs as well. its laggy as hell here, its just some highpolygon buildings with some shaders + postprocessing + nice music + nice gui (although i cant read it - nothing that couldnt be done with 3dgs.
but why should anyone do it with 3dgs? i would rather make my own game than doing some sort of demo. also in my mind trying to do something similar to the last aaa industry standard will always fail. one should rather concentrate on solid / fast gameplay and a game that runs on lots of pc's thats exactely wher the weakness of the gfx intense games is and where you as an indie developer can jump in and provide an alternative fun game for all people.
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: ulf]
#182443
02/07/08 17:50
02/07/08 17:50
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Yes, you're right, for ús as customers it makes more sense to just concentrate on whatever we want to make. I think A7 will become more mature in time and perhaps more shader-based too, but it will always lag a bit behind what's happening in the AAA-area so yeah, no way we're ever going to be able to compete with that, let alone the fact that most teams are by far not big enough to achieve something in a reasonable time-frame. In my opinion, and I do not know if that's really true, I think Quest3D is lagging behind a lot less than 3DGS at the moment, because it seems the Quest3D performance is better,
Cheers
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#182444
02/07/08 17:53
02/07/08 17:53
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134 Netherlands
Joozey
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No. There is much to do about it. Building a team, attracting artists with your knowledge, buying quality art-assets or just learning how to model it yourself.
Yes, but that is not what most of the programmers will do here, and certainly not in behalf of gamestudio, which is what the thread is aiming at. Not create a game and try to publish, but show what a wonderful engine we have.
I do have tried multiple times to create a team with people around me (not from the forum) but they all have set their own learning goals, and what they create is often not suitable for 3dgs (e.g. very highpoly, wrong formats, unimportable animations, unimportable UV mapping, not efficient use of textures) but is fine for rendering purpose and stuff like that, things they want to create for themself rather than focussing on what the engine needs. Not just anyone can simply scratch a team together and work on a game. Most will end up alone in the end, really .
We have too much programmers here, and too few artists to work together with. Financials plays a big role here too, and theres alot to say about it, but I wont go deeper on this subject now. The aim of this thread is, however, to make a demo for 3dgs, not for sale. So who wants to pay for graphics if one wants to make such a demo? Nobody. And without money to spent, no artists, no models, no nothing but average graphics most people are capable to make.
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But I also could claim that I can do all that by myself, arrogant and ignorant. But I am sure now, that this would fail miserably even with a small casual game project.
Ah sure you can complete a game by yourself. You can do both programming and graphics, so if you can't, nobody here can, and since the latter can be disproven, I'm quite sure you can ^^. But I wonder why you think you can't...
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: Joozey]
#182445
02/07/08 18:05
02/07/08 18:05
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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We have too much programmers here, and too few artists to work together with. Financials plays a big role here too, and theres alot to say about it, but I wont go deeper on this subject now. The aim of this thread is, however, to make a demo for 3dgs, not for sale. So who wants to pay for graphics if one wants to make such a demo? Nobody. And without money to spent, no artists, no models, no nothing but average graphics most people are capable to make.
With a lot of other engines, like for example most 2D engines people will work for free in a team and just for the sake of honor. It's too bad that everyone here seems to be like 'nah, man that will cost you money'. I don't understand why not more people are willing to cooperate in small teams for free and when they make something successful just get their "bonus income" from there?
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Ah sure you can complete a game by yourself. You can do both programming and graphics, so if you can't, nobody here can, and since the latter can be disproven, I'm quite sure you can ^^. But I wonder why you think you can't...
I think he just thinks that if he's the only one in the team that it's not worth spending the time needed to do it. Because really anyone can make "games" (notice I didn't say "good games"), it just takes time and a bit of talent perhaps, but if we're talking solely about finishing a project then I think most people here just get bored rather quickly with their slightly too ambitious projects and fail because of that.
What I often wonder is, why do we not see more games with 'programmer art'? Everybody seems to go for realism because it's 3D, but especially with 3DGS I think going for an abstract look and feel will be way more successful. I'm thinking about the Inago Rage kind of look. Even programmers can make those kind of graphics, right?
When I'm really honest I think people here do not see the engine for what it is and small casual games sort of is the way to go in my opinion when you're a lone wolf and don't have a team of 5+ members or so.
Cheers
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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#182446
02/07/08 18:47
02/07/08 18:47
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,205 Greece
LarryLaffer
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Prizes: 3500 EURO + Quest3D 4.0 Power Edition + T-Shirt
I wonder who saw this and said: Wow, I'm gonna get me a shirt!
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Yes, it makes no sense to wait for IntenseX
Hey!
Well, you're right.... It's all about those gazillion panels i had to make from scratch. This one has 12 tabs in it!
Conitec has said a lot of times that it costs too much money to make tech demos, and they prefer to show works from their userbase. Nevertheless, from A3 to A7 conitec has published a number of techdemos, but they all got dated too fast.
Imho, what they should do, is release small example executables(with source code included), everytime they release a new feature. I'm sure they've developed these examples to create their features anyway, so release them, so people can see A7's features in action, and a proper example on how to create their own. These should include a small shader example, one for physics, multiplayer, bones, something with their 2d engine, file manipulation, one with a terrain and LOD, etc. That would be enough for me to appreciate the engine's capabilities and buy me a copy.
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