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Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: PHeMoX] #182447
02/07/08 19:00
02/07/08 19:00
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert
Machinery_Frank  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Quote:

You seem to forget that...



No. I forget nothing

Quote:

...the Quest3D engine has a whole different customer base.



Yes. I agree.

Quote:

Generally those people can program very well...



I dont agree. Quest 3d scripts are clicked togehter in a visual script designer.

Quote:

...and a lot of them seem to be semi-professionals compared to the 3DGS's customer base.



Ok. This might be true. So 3dgs customers are less professional.
This is the case with the majority of them.
But ask yourself: Not the community is to blame for that. The communities gather around the product that fits to them.

If you all say that here are mainly coders, then it means, 3dgs is fun to code. If you say there are no artists then it is the other way around for them.
If you say, there are no professionals here, then there is something missing, something they need badly.

Quote:

It's apples and oranges, so obviously the demos aren't comparable either.



Both are fruits providing vitamins (Both are engines rendering content to the screen, displaying sound and providing input options for controling the camera. Both can create games or walkthroughs).

Quote:

I think there are talented people here, but from the way I see it, this community isn't at their level of experience and competence by far.



Again. The community is not made by a god. If pro users did not gather here then there must be reasons for that. Maybe those reasons disappear in the future with new features. But it is not the community to blame for this situation.

To come back to topic:
A demo should display what a game-engine can do. But what is a game engine made for? There is input and output for the final product. Output is only screen and speakers (watching and listening). So it is sound and graphik.
The input comes from keyboard, mouse or gamepad. This is what a game-engine is and this should be presented in a demo. Graphik is probably the most important point in terms of output otherwise you would all start to make music with another software

But users of this forum tend to say: "We dont need good output. Graphic and sound is not important. Hacking on keyboard is."

I understand this if you like to hack tons of code - then hacking is great. But gamers see it the other way around. They want to have much impact with little but fitting control.
That means: good handling of camera or player while pressing only a few buttons but experiencing great worlds (via eyes and ears).


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Machinery_Frank] #182448
02/07/08 19:11
02/07/08 19:11
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar Offline
Expert
broozar  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
if you really want to make an a7 feature demo, create a level similar to serious sam's tech test: a corridor with rooms, each containing a teapot. each teapot room shows another feature. so you need not to be a great level designer, nor a great coder, you just have to know how to gather all features and pack them into one level and let them speak for themselves. this way, it will neither be an art demo with fakes for the art's sake (baked texture shadows on models and kind of that stuff) or a programmer's showcase (crazy ai etc that does not come with the engine but is a programmer's skill).

Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: broozar] #182449
02/07/08 19:22
02/07/08 19:22
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert
Machinery_Frank  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Hey, I very much like the ideas of LarryLaffer and Broozar. They can be combined with each other.

Behind each door is a showcase of another feature of 3dgs. What should we show there?

- terrain lod
- more than 8 dynamic lights
- poly collision (maybe in a complex cave)
- shaders
- ABT scene management with many polygons
- particles

And maybe Conitec can later add: shadow via second uv-set, decals

What would you like to show?


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Machinery_Frank] #182450
02/07/08 19:23
02/07/08 19:23
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
ello Offline
Senior Expert
ello  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,939
planet.earth
additionally one could shoot at the teapot which makes it a fps. the teapot itselfs is trying to put you into itself to cook you

Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: ello] #182451
02/07/08 19:25
02/07/08 19:25
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,436
Germany, Luebeck
Xarthor Offline
Expert
Xarthor  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,436
Germany, Luebeck
The "shooting part" could also be added to a "physics-room" where you can shoot things which hang around, or Helghast provides his ragdoll code and the user can have some fun with that too

Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Xarthor] #182452
02/07/08 20:18
02/07/08 20:18
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar Offline
Expert
broozar  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
plus animation/motion blending, distance fog, static and dynamic shadows, reflections/mirrors, sounds (3d/stereo/background music).

Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Xarthor] #182453
02/07/08 22:18
02/07/08 22:18
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,023
The Netherlands
Helghast Offline
Expert
Helghast  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,023
The Netherlands
Quote:

The "shooting part" could also be added to a "physics-room" where you can shoot things which hang around, or Helghast provides his ragdoll code and the user can have some fun with that too




YES YES YES, i get it!

im working my ass off on some optimisation codes for you guys i've done one out of 3 now, stop whining! it'll be here soon enough

and yes, it'll include a testlevel, what i had in mind was a set of stairs that you could knock the enemy's over the railings, making them fall story's down should be rather easy.

anyway, i'll be back on optimizing!

*my precious*

regards,


Formerly known as dennis_fantasy
Portfolio - http://www.designorhea.com/
Project - http://randomchance.cherrygames.org/
Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Machinery_Frank] #182454
02/07/08 22:19
02/07/08 22:19
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

Quote:

Generally those people can program very well...



I dont agree. Quest 3d scripts are clicked togehter in a visual script designer.




I seriously doubt this, especially those demos in the contest, but if you say so...

Quote:

Quote:

...and a lot of them seem to be semi-professionals compared to the 3DGS's customer base.



Ok. This might be true. So 3dgs customers are less professional.
This is the case with the majority of them.
But ask yourself: Not the community is to blame for that. The communities gather around the product that fits to them.

If you all say that here are mainly coders, then it means, 3dgs is fun to code. If you say there are no artists then it is the other way around for them.
If you say, there are no professionals here, then there is something missing, something they need badly.




Actually I'm not talking about coders or artists, I'm talking about teams. Artists usually join teams that already have decided for a certain engine and here it just seems that not many artists tend to choose for 3DGS for their own game-making endeavors. Is this really relevant when your teams consists of capable coders ánd artists that will use 3rd party tools mostly anyways? No, off course not.

Quote:

Quote:

It's apples and oranges, so obviously the demos aren't comparable either.



Both are fruits providing vitamins (Both are engines rendering content to the screen, displaying sound and providing input options for controling the camera. Both can create games or walkthroughs).




Even if money wouldn't be an issue they would still be quite different. In fact, you said so yourself, there are different communities gathering around these products. From a technical point of view there are some obvious differences too. In a sense it's the very same thing why you wouldn't ever want to compare 3DGS to the Unreal 3 engine. We can't compete on that level and therefore should not, there's plenty of other ways to make fun and innovative games instead of relying on technical superiority only. Because frankly I'm sure there are Quest3D games that suck bigtime even wíth better graphics.

Quote:

Again. The community is not made by a god. If pro users did not gather here then there must be reasons for that. Maybe those reasons disappear in the future with new features. But it is not the community to blame for this situation.




Actually the community ís to blame for the part where they aren't able to get a team together and make and finish games, obviously with a handful of exceptions that's largely the case here. It's not the tools that define how good a game will be, it's the developers, well excuse me for saying this, but you don't seem to grasp that.

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: PHeMoX] #182455
02/07/08 22:33
02/07/08 22:33
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
Damocles Offline
Expert
Damocles  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,305
what is actually ABT scene management ?

Re: 3DGS demo's, what would you like to see? [Re: Damocles] #182456
02/07/08 22:45
02/07/08 22:45
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,012
germany, dresden
ulf Offline
Serious User
ulf  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,012
germany, dresden
Quote:

Again. The community is not made by a god. If pro users did not gather here then there must be reasons for that. Maybe those reasons disappear in the future with new features. But it is not the community to blame for this situation.




actually if you watch closely there are a lot "pro" users around using 3dgs. the only problem is, that most of the so called "pro" users are not really active in the community.

by using the term "pro" i refer to those who make finished games or applications with gamestudio. for some unknown reasons if some guys know they can achieve something, they rather spent time doing so, with their own team instead of wasting valuable time in a "newb" community.
think about how much time you waste just browsing this forum

there are exceptions - wich is good, but the majority of those who use gamestudio as a real commercial way of making money is not present here, or rarely seen.

the most helpful for the community are people trying out little things, experimenting, writing little contributions and so on.

correct me if i'm wrong.
even with the best engine you can't change this fact.

edit: oh and by the way, if you guys worry about the community, there is a nice #3dgs channel open in quakenet. unfortunately the 'community' is not interested and there are only ~3-5 guys online there... if you take the garagegames torque irc channel you find up to 100 there on peak times... thats a fact speaking for itself.

Last edited by ulf; 02/07/08 22:49.
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