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Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: fastlane69] #203787
04/24/08 06:54
04/24/08 06:54
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Why_Do_I_Die Offline OP
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"So it is your contention then that advancement should be stopped outright since according to this website they produce more negatives than positives"

Not just that website , i've stated a ton of negatives already.
But wouldnt that be basic logic ? Something does more bad than good , then ? uhhh ? let's keep doing it till we're all dead : )

You cant deny it , science will be our doom , specially with more and more poweful experiments like the LHC , maybe after they will develop a LHBD (Large Hadron Beam of Destruction) , and maybe , just maybe , test it out by shooting it at the sun.

It is wrong to make such experiments withought the outmost approval by all of the worlds people through a voting system , it is wrong for this decisions to be made by the scientists and the politicians they bamboozle, it is wrong for them not to be fully open and honest about every single possibility of disaster , it is wrong to mislead the public for their own self indulgance. This points you cannot argued , it is wrong to handle such delicate things in this manner.

And lets not forget , THEY ALREADY HAD THEIR FIRST ACCIDENT , and from what I read , the scientists were running rampant and scared out of their minds they thinking had messed with something they shouldnt have messed with. But I guess they saw it wasnt a fatal accident , so they continue. Things like this are signs , signs are always arounndu us , we usually ignore them , but they are there. And the nature of the flaw , a simple mathematical miscalculation , that got overseen by many engineers over 4 years , dont you think thats a sign ? It's something that should have been virtually impossible to happen , because of the nature of the project , such care , they have to review this thing like a billion times before making it , but this simple mistake happened , sometimes strange things like this have a meaning to them , it's a bad thing that we usually ignore them.

Last edited by Why_Do_I_Die; 04/24/08 07:13.
Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #203789
04/24/08 08:05
04/24/08 08:05
Joined: Mar 2003
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fastlane69 Offline
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fastlane69  Offline
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 Quote:
But wouldnt that be basic logic ? Something does more bad than good , then ? uhhh ? let's keep doing it till we're all dead


Very well then. Let's agree to this logic and, quite reasonably IMO, agree that if an course of action does more harm than good, that action should be desisted.

First off, can you adequately quantize the "good" vs. "bad" applications of science and show that bad is a clear winner? For as far as I'm concerned, science has done more good than bad for our society... and I'm willing to show my cards if you take the effort to show yours...

Secondly, assuming tech does in fact do/cause/incite more evil than good, do we then throw out all our technology to date out the window so that there is no possibility of harm though it? Or is there a cutoff point for what technology progress is acceptable and what is not? Is some tech deemed "good" and other "bad" and if so how is that judged? Or as you state, do we vote on what tech stays and what goes?

 Quote:
It is wrong to make such experiments withought the outmost approval by all of the worlds people through a voting system , it is wrong for this decisions to be made by the scientists and the politicians they bamboozle,


Very well then. Let's agree to your worldview and stop all further non-democratic scientific experimentation.

Which means that all upteen billion people in the world would have an equal say in what we do, for example, with the LHC. Is this what you are espousing? I'm just trying to understand this point as clearly as possible before we move on.

 Quote:
And lets not forget , THEY ALREADY HAD THEIR FIRST ACCIDENT ,


What's this accident? At least grant me the common decency of posting your references so I don't have to dig them up myself. I'm not denying it's there, I'm just asking for a little discussion forum courtesy or etiquette on your part please. \:\)


Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: fastlane69] #203793
04/24/08 09:06
04/24/08 09:06
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Michael_Schwarz Offline
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i think me means this accident:

http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/03/31/lhc-magnet-test-failure/

but its not black hole causing, infact, it would even prevent the black hole from originating...


"Sometimes JCL reminds me of Notch, but more competent" ~ Kiyaku
Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Michael_Schwarz] #203803
04/24/08 10:19
04/24/08 10:19
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Why_Do_I_Die Offline OP
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http://www.photonics.com/content/news/2007/April/4/87089.aspx

Here are some quotes
"What the analysis shows so far is that something extraordinarily simple was missed in the design. We do many very complex engineering projects successfully that require sophisticated engineering skills and advanced computing tools. We test the complex features we design thoroughly. In this case we are dumbfounded that we missed some very simple balance of forces."
""Not only was it missed in the engineering design but also in the four engineering reviews carried out between 1998 and 2002 before launching the construction of the magnets."

Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #203809
04/24/08 11:07
04/24/08 11:07
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Joozey Offline
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Joozey  Offline
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Why_Do_I_Die:
Can you also give solutions for all the problems you sum up?
Do you want the LHC project to be cancelled? And if yes, how would that solve all the problems you mentioned? How can you be sure that the LHC is the cause of the problems, and not something else? Deciding to stop the project costs alot, I mean, ALOT of money. If the problems are still not solved, then you just wasted a few billion dollars.

If you do not wish to cancel it, then why are you summing up all the problems in the first place?

Last edited by Joozey; 04/24/08 11:11.

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Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Joozey] #203815
04/24/08 11:40
04/24/08 11:40
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Why_Do_I_Die Offline OP
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"If you do not wish to cancel it, then why are you summing up all the problems in the first place? "
Well the conversation obviously took itself from the topic , of course the lhc isnt the cause for the other problems mentioned , but all those problems stemed from new technologies created by science which then had adverse effects to our world. Some of which have had to been baned and stopped in order to control the problems they have created.

Do I want to Collider stopped , of course , if there are ANY dangers at all of creating a black hole or strangelets , then yes , I would say it is enough to stop it. Even a 1% chance of this happening would be too much of a risk to take. The problem I have with all this is the Cern people say there's almost no chance of this happening , like 0.000001% , but there's others that say that actually the chance is around 10% to 20%. Now , if I've learned something about people and the world is that people LIE , and twist and manipulate the truth for their own convenience , which leads me to believe the Cern people are just manipulating facts. The Cern employees working on the LHC have all been told to tell the public there is basically zero chance of anything strange happening , even though the chance is actually greater.

Now consider this , the mini black holes that could be created or the strangelets , are all hypothetical , so people tend to just ignore them , but so is the boson higgs , yet they have built a six billion dollar machine to look for it , hoping and believing they will find it, doesnt this make the chance of finding/creating mini black holes and strangelets the same as finding the higgs ? So that means that , in theory , since this is as they themselves call it "unexplored territory" the chances of destroying our world and the chances of finding the higgs are the same , 50/50 , yet we buiilt the machine for it , which means those people MUST believe in strangelets as well , and interdimensions , and must know the risk they are taking , and know that there isnt a zero risk , but more of a 25%(to be fair) risk , yet , they supress all this information because the public would become enraged were they to find out the consequences this experiment could have, let alone that the people payed for it with their taxes.

Yes , thats the world we live in , we pay our taxes to build roads , and have healthcare (which they dont give , you have to get insurance) , and schools , and they take it and build nuclear bombs , secret bases , massive armies , and giant particle colliders with the potential to destroy the world. Wow , talk about having no say in where our money goes.

Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #203817
04/24/08 11:43
04/24/08 11:43
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PHeMoX Offline
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 Quote:
Things like this are signs


When there's smoke coming out of the machine it means it's broken and needs to be fixed. Other than that I don't see what kind of signs you are talking about. Experiments really do not go wrong for some magical supernatural reason.

 Quote:
You cant deny it , science will be our doom


Which is funny, because more people than ever live today thanks to (medical) science, where people that only pray to their Gods usually just die. Talking about signs, eey? ;\)

 Quote:
twist and manipulate the truth for their own convenience , which leads me to believe the Cern people are just manipulating facts.


The CERN people are not manipulating any facts, in fact, the whole 'it creates blackholes' theory comes from people that really know little about the whole thing. It's their manipulation of facts you should be worrying about instead, as those people really only want to spread fear for science, technophobia, conspiracy theories, doomsday scenarios and so on.

Cheers


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Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: PHeMoX] #203840
04/24/08 13:57
04/24/08 13:57
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Joozey Offline
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Joozey  Offline
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 Quote:
The problem I have with all this is the Cern people say there's almost no chance of this happening , like 0.000001% , but there's others that say that actually the chance is around 10% to 20%. Now , if I've learned something about people and the world is that people LIE , and twist and manipulate the truth for their own convenience , which leads me to believe the Cern people are just manipulating facts. The Cern employees working on the LHC have all been told to tell the public there is basically zero chance of anything strange happening , even though the chance is actually greater.

You forgot one thing, chances of generating a black hole is not only priviledged knowledge to CERN. Everyone can do the maths and decide how much chance there is. But if you know how people got to their answers, you might find that their conclusions do not differ at all, rather some just did not fully complete or revealed their search and thus gave false facts, whether it be the CERN scientist or panic-seeding people.

Until you give me the maths that gives the exact chance of a black hole to be generated, there is no reason not to believe CERN scientists other than the lack of your personal trust in today scientists. I have a lack of trust in panic-seeding people, and thats why I vote for CERN, but I do not have the actual prove why it should continue. So neither do you have the prove to cancel it. You named facts, but you did not prove anything. Since the project is already there for 16 years and wont be cancelled, it's up to you to take action now!

You have only one thing left to do; paste the mathematical calculations for chances of a BH here and prove for once and ever that CERN is really dangerous to the existence of our world... or not.


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Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #203846
04/24/08 14:15
04/24/08 14:15
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adoado Offline

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adoado  Offline

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 Quote:

Yes , nuclear weapons far outweigh any of the good. You dont think so now , but wait till some fall close to where you live , i can assure you your mind would instantly change on the subject.


First of all, if we did not have science we would still probably be in the equivalent of the stone age or something similar. Science is not just the big things, like nuclear weapons. How things move, motion - physics - all science. Without science, no cars, no lights, no electricity, no computers, no internet, we would not be able to make strong alloys, etc. The world as we know it would be very different. So say nuclear weapons out way all of this is a bit strange IMHO...

 Quote:

WOW , you all really believ this ?


Why not?

 Quote:

Open your eyes , and understand the world you live in.


What - a world where science has been marked as evil because of one discovery of atomic power/nuclear weapons?

Thanks ^^
adoado

Edit: Sorry, I had not checked the forums for a while and replied based on where it was earlier. I see now that the forum has changed discussion slightly - if so, just ignore my post


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Re: (LHC)Large Hadron Collider endangers earth [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #203905
04/24/08 22:26
04/24/08 22:26
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fastlane69 Offline
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fastlane69  Offline
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 Quote:
The problem I have with all this is the Cern people say there's almost no chance of this happening , like 0.000001% , but there's others that say that actually the chance is around 10% to 20%.

Which is why, in polite online discussions, we always put up our references.
Could you post your references for the .0000001% crowd and (to me at least) more importantly the 20% crowd.
Only by knowing where you are getting your information can that information be properly addressed.


 Quote:
The Cern employees working on the LHC have all been told to tell the public there is basically zero chance of anything strange happening , even though the chance is actually greater.

Again, the crux to this point is WHO is saying that it's greater. Their knowledge of CERN and Particle Physics must be closely examined if we are to assign any validity to his statement. So again, Why_do, do the polite thing and post your references please.

 Quote:
Now consider this , the mini black holes that could be created or the strangelets , are all hypothetical , so people tend to just ignore them , but so is the boson higgs , yet they have built a six billion dollar machine to look for it , hoping and believing they will find it, doesnt this make the chance of finding/creating mini black holes and strangelets the same as finding the higgs ?

The chance that Jessica Alba will marry me is very very small... almost nothing. BUT it is hypothetially possible.

Does this mean that the LHC will allow for a probablity of my marrying Jessica Alba? After all, your hypothesis is "if one hypothetical can happen, then EVERY hypothetical can happen", right?


 Quote:
theory , since this is as they themselves call it "unexplored territory" the chances of destroying our world and the chances of finding the higgs are the same , 50/50

Nonsense. Have you ever traveled? Gotten off a plane in a strange and new city. By your arguemnt, I have entered "nexplored territory" and thus there is a 50/50 chance that I will live or die by your logic.

Your fear of the unknown is showing and gives a lot of insight into your religious beliefs... if I was scared that every action mankind takes would lead to my destruction, if I was scared that things are our of my control, I too would probably be prying to the gods above!


 Quote:
which means those people MUST believe in strangelets as well , and interdimensions ,

So what of it? Can you prove, scintifically, that either of these are dangerous?

Why_do, you are not a mind reader and you have no science background that I can discern.

How then do you presue to a) read peoples minds and state what they do and do not say, what they lie and tell the truth about, and b)

 Quote:
but more of a 25%(to be fair) risk , yet

Come up with wild, unfactual numbers like that?


Why_do: Is it too much to ask of you that if you are stating facts or numbers, that you validate them? In particular, I am interested in your following claims....

 Quote:
The problem I have with all this is the Cern people say there's almost no chance of this happening , like 0.000001% , but there's others that say that actually the chance is around 10% to 20%.

Needed: two references, one for the .000001% and the other for the 20%

 Quote:
The Cern employees working on the LHC have all been told to tell the public there is basically zero chance of anything strange happening , even though the chance is actually greater.

Needed: a refrence from CERN stating privately that they believe that cause is greater and a reference from CERN stating publically tha they don't believe this


Is that too much to ask?

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