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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #208992
05/31/08 06:56
05/31/08 06:56
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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fastlane69  Offline OP
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Fastlane , you are a JOKE man. Plain and simple , I would tell you the proper words that describe you but sadly this forum is full of homosexuals and I would undoubtely get banned for it.


Ahhh... so we've come to this again. As you yourself once stated, "those that cannot attack a person's point attack the person".

Took you a few days for you to lose you composure again. I'm proud of you, again, for making it this far!

Quote:
(look at the description of what a ufo is I put ontop).


???? On top of your computer, on top of the fridge, on top of what? I don't see a description. confused

Quote:
someone who was not there , is not a trained air craft specialist , and has no idea of what they saw.


Exactly. And neither were you. So we are faced with the situation of first believing that these people saw a UFO -- we both agree to this, as you say these are reputable people, so we both choose the same first belief. We may be wrong... they may have been on drugs or hit their head or any other number of reasons, but for the sake of arguement, this is an easy one to just since "fine, I accept you saw these lights".

But then we are faced with a further choice of believing them AGAIN in that the UFO is of extraterrestrial origin, that they in fact know somehow that it was not military or inter-dimensional or spiritual or anything else.

Here we disagree in that I believe it was still a UFO, still unidentified, since they have no outside evidence otherwise. After all, Unidentified does not mean it was Alien, not by a long shot.

While you believe them a second time in their conclusion that it was not a UFO but an IFO, Identified Flying Object, since you concur with their identification of the UFO as an Alien Craft.



Quote:
Where are your credentials ? What kind of training do you have that would qualify you to over rule their conclusions on the sucject considering their training and position .


Deja Vu is such a tiresome thing...

I don't need to flash my credentials to make a point; I only need present facts and cohesive conclusions to make a point. That is the ONLY reason people on this forum listen to me... that's really the only people I listen to. And what they think of me or my ideas is of no concern tome... because they are listening... and continue to listen... as you have time and time again. blush

Quote:
Further illuminate why we here should even mildly consider what you have to say versus what they have to say.


Why? LOL smirk


Quote:
We arent even 100% sure we actually exist , how can you be so damnding of them ?


I'm not being demanding of them; you are You are the person that is espousing the viewpoint that these are aliens, that they must be alien because AFAYK, there is no other reason, that they must be aliens because the people that saw the lights SAY it was aliens.

I on the other hand am the one espousing the viewpoint that they might be aliens or that they might be some other phenomena yet neither viewpoint can be proven conclusively at this time. I can however point once again to the Elves and Sprites as an example of weather phenomena that looks like 80% to 90% of all UFO sightings and thus underlies our complete ignorances as to the "U" in "UFO".

Thus that 100% comes from you and all the other eyewitnesses who are 100% convinced it was an Alien Craft and not just a UFO... remember, absolutism is your policy, not mine.

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: fastlane69] #208995
05/31/08 07:31
05/31/08 07:31
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AlbertoT Offline
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Quote:

I have NO idea what this is all about or what it's meant to show. confused
Is this another "absurd" attempt?



Your are making only issues, no reason for me to answer

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: AlbertoT] #209006
05/31/08 09:46
05/31/08 09:46
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Why_Do_I_Die Offline
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"Took you a few days for you to lose you composure again. I'm proud of you, again, for making it this far!"

Thank you thank you , it ain't easy , i'm a hot blooded person.

"???? On top of your computer, on top of the fridge, on top of what? I don't see a description. "

In the previous sentences

"Exactly. And neither were you. So we are faced with the situation of first believing that these people saw a UFO -- we both agree to this, as you say these are reputable people, so we both choose the same first belief. We may be wrong... they may have been on drugs or hit their head or any other number of reasons, but for the sake of arguement, this is an easy one to just since "fine, I accept you saw these lights"."

Correct

"But then we are faced with a further choice of believing them AGAIN in that the UFO is of extraterrestrial origin, that they in fact know somehow that it was not military or inter-dimensional or spiritual or anything else."

Well if it's not from earth , it's extra-TERRESTRIAL. So , even if they were inter-dimensional or sipiritual , they are still extra-terrestrial. See , the big thing is , we don't really know what aliens and UFO's are , nobody knows what they are , people just witness the event , and usually it gets ignored and it's said it's a weather balloon or something. Here , we have proof that this in fact was not a weather balloon , or radar anomaly , we have proof that this "UFOs" are in fact a reality. Of course , since this people didn't actually see what was inside/behind this lights (space craft or the like), we cannot say they were alien beings piloting alien space craft , but we cannot say they were not UFOs and that they do not exist.

Now we are left with the question , what the hell were those lights , now because of the radar, we can see the size , and these were the size of air craft , and the hovered around , and when the human piloted plane was sent to see what those lights were , they elevated themselves until they were out of the planet , and disappeared . So from their size , and behavior , the most logical interpretation would be that this were some type of unknown air craft. The fact that they were just hovering around a military zone for hours also points to this lights as being something more than just a strange lighting artifact of phenomena . So in a scientific way , you would have to conclude that the most logical explanation for this craft , considering their size , behavior , and the fact they they were flying , would be that they were some sort of extra-terrestrial(not from earth) or extra-dimensional(not from our dimension) air craft/ship.

"I don't need to flash my credentials to make a point;"

Well thats a new one , you seem to only regard arguments made by scientists and science published articles , that lets me know credentials are incredibly important to you , before you consider what the people are saying. So , you require credentials to take someone seriously , but dont need any to discredit government officials and their testimonies. Fantastic , I like the way you work.

"I only need present facts and cohesive conclusions to make a point."

Your points are ALWAYS incoherent and biased.

"That is the ONLY reason people on this forum listen to me"

Nobody here listens to you , but I see you have delusions of being of higher intelligence and intellect , a very common sign of scientist syndrome.

"that's really the only people I listen to."

LOL , you only listen to scientists with credentials , you don't believe that one yourself.

"And what they think of me or my ideas is of no concern tome... because they are listening... and continue to listen... as you have time and time again"

An even bigger delusional problem than I anticipated. Btw , and how do I listen to you ? I have contradicted every statement you've made , and wiped my [censored] with your arguments for evolution , and proved beyond a doubt that evolution is a matter of faith rather than science , and proved that UFO's do exist (by your own admittance). So , how is that listening ? I find your arguments laughable , incoherent , and those that a def and blind sheep might follow. Yet you believe them by heart , which shows your low level of mentality and spirituality.

"remember, absolutism is your policy, not mine."

Exactly , your policy is ignoring anything you don't understand , but that is a policy that rids you of any responsibility or any coherence , since you don't have to try to explain what you or scientists don't understand , you just say you don't know what it was , and move on . But on evolution and the big bang , well that we have no proof of , but still blindly belief , LOL . This is truly a marvelous example of how brainwashing children is as powerful a tool as they can wield , and how the undoing of this is EXTREMELY difficult.



Let me tell you something fastlane , I was , before doing research into everything , a follower of science , Evolution and the Big Bang made perfect sense (the theories are well thought out after all) . I thought Einstein was a genius , and he is , but his theory is ultimately flawed. After much research , in science , big bang , evolution , religion , creationism , archeology , all of our history as humans , then , you come to the conclusion that there is much more unknown than known , and EVERYONE , from religious to scientists to creationists piece theories together from the fact fragments we have. So , you realize how nobody really knowns 100% for sure ANYTHING. You should consider pulling your nose away from the science books and look at all the other wealth of ideas theories and evidence out there , you might reconsider what you believe you know.

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: Why_Do_I_Die] #209010
05/31/08 10:58
05/31/08 10:58
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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"???? On top of your computer, on top of the fridge, on top of what? I don't see a description. "

In the previous sentences


There is no description of UFO's in any previous sentences. But if you think that spelling out UFO is a description, then, well, ummm....

Quote:
Well if it's not from earth , it's extra-TERRESTRIAL.


Which again proves that you are biased towards a UFO not being from Earth. As I show below, there are many other equally valid explanations that are solely and firmly from Earth

Quote:
Here , we have proof that this in fact was not a weather balloon , or radar anomaly , we have proof that this "UFOs" are in fact a reality.


Nobody denies that UFOs are real. By definition, an F-117 was a UFO for many decades during it's trials. By definition, Elves and Sprites were UFOs until 1989. Both UFOs; both Terrestrial.

Quote:
and when the human piloted plane was sent to see what those lights were , they elevated themselves until they were out of the planet , and disappeared


Another example of taking an undisputed fact (objects on radar; pilots sent to investigate) and making wild subjective interpretations of the events ("until they were out of the planet"). I'm seeing a pattern here...


Quote:
So in a scientific way , you would have to conclude that the most logical explanation for this craft , considering their size , behavior , and the fact they they were flying , would be that they were some sort of extra-terrestrial(not from earth) or extra-dimensional(not from our dimension) air craft/ship.


...OR a Terrestrial Aircraft with flight characteristics the public doesn't know about.

...OR a Natural Phenomena such as Elves, Sprite, Ball Lightning, or a yet undiscovered effect.

...OR a Underwater Race of superbeings whose crafts are not from outer space, but from right here on Earth.

...OR an Invisible Race of humans who live among us and whose technology occasionally fails, hence the sightings.

Is there any way to dismiss any of these terrestrial possibilities away in lieu of extra-terrestrials?

Quote:
"I don't need to flash my credentials to make a point;"

Well thats a new one , you seem to only regard arguments made by scientists and science published articles , that lets me know credentials are incredibly important to you

Quote:
"that's really the only people I listen to."

LOL , you only listen to scientists with credentials , you don't believe that one yourself.


Orrrrr, it could be that if I'm studying a subject, I'll naturally go to the experts in that subject first? Pretty crazy I know but if the topic is "science", I would naturally post reference from "scientists" whom have credentials (PhD) as representing most knowledgeable from that area.

When the topic is "religion", I would naturally post references from the "religious" whom have credentials (like Father) in that area as representing the most knowledgeable.

And when the topic is "cooking", I would naturally post references from the "cooks" whom have credentials (like chef).

But the original question was that I myself did not need to flash my credentials to make a point. All you are making a statement on is on how I gather my information. But this doesn't mean these are the only people I listen too as you so erroneously assume (get used to that Why_do: erroneously assumed... you'll see it a lot now that I've identified it) I have agreed with you and phemox and nitro and others with no regard to your degrees. I will often disagree with PhD's, MBAs, whatever other credential so even they are not above scrutiny. So credentials just prove that you "might" know something about a subject but it in no way shape or form automatically makes me believe what they say.

So once again you are making a wrong assumption that just because I turn to experts in a field of study for my research means that I dismiss anyones who does not have credentials.


Quote:
I have contradicted every statement you've made , and wiped my [censored] with your arguments for evolution , and proved beyond a doubt that evolution is a matter of faith rather than science , and proved that UFO's do exist (by your own admittance).


I know that in your mind this is true. And I'm thankful that maybe only one or two other minds believe that above is true.

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since you don't have to try to explain what you or scientists don't understand


That pretty much sums it up. Yeaup. If I don't understand, I have no right to explain.

Quote:
But on evolution and the big bang , well that we have no proof of


You have such a fuzzy concept of "proof" that it is no surprise that you would say in the same thread that there is no proof for the Big Bang or Evolution... but there is proof for Alien UFOs!!!! ROLMAO

Sows what happens when we start to exclusively believing what our minds imagine for us (Extra-dimensional Alien Air Craft) instead of what the world really shows us (unexplained lights).


Quote:
I thought Einstein was a genius , and he is , but his theory is ultimately flawed.


LOL Classic Comment! I'm going to refer you back to the Crackpot Index and leave it at that. smile

Quote:
You should consider pulling your nose away from the science books and look at all the other wealth of ideas theories and evidence out there , you might reconsider what you believe you know


Again, because you can't make your point, you start attacking the person. And again you make wild accusations (that all I read is science books) but have zero evidence to show for it. I see the pattern now... heck I saw it in our first discussions... and you are very clear to me Why_Do... transperant even! smile

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: fastlane69] #209012
05/31/08 11:06
05/31/08 11:06
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sebcrea Offline
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Why haven't you answered my last question who would be more prepared wink. What if evolution is not just evolving in 4 dimensions but in 11, the reason I see most people are struggling with the existence of other beings is simply the fact that it would make us less special.

The word alien is full of mistakes, when you say alien people think creatures from space coming here but to get to a unified theory about our universe, we currently have no other solution than the M-Theory with 11 and up 21 dimensions and it seems satellites give us a lot of new data to test that theory. My way of solving problems is based on creativity for that mean interpretation and I know scientists are good at investigating the ink of the text of a book but by doing that they totally dismiss the context of the book.

For me we are like fish in a pond living in 4 dimensions not even aware of the world outside the pond of hyperspace and the intelligent s (beings) that are living in the hidden worlds. But that doesn't mean we need to put our heads into the sand, because we have the chance to discover something that is far beyond of what we believe the world consists of.

Maybe all those people who saw crafts are totally mistaken and all the trace cases are hoaxes but this is the evidence we have. The other option is to say all are lying and making up stuff thats is for me more based on believe than the believe in testimony and trace cases. You have to remember also that these people never got big money, they mostly get laughter.

Even it is a big money blockbuster there is a wonderful line at the end of the newest “Indiana Jones” movie “Their treasure was not gold, it was knowledge” and that is the fundamental rule of everything we try to do to answer questions.

So guys watch the sky,reality is not just defined by what we can prove but also by what we experience.

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: sebcrea] #209013
05/31/08 11:29
05/31/08 11:29
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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Why haven't you answered my last question who would be more prepared


Because it has no answer and is purely guesswork. I can equally argue both answers so nothing is gained.

Quote:
What if evolution is not just evolving in 4 dimensions but in 11, the reason I see most people are struggling with the existence of other beings is simply the fact that it would make us less special.


A fascinating hypothesis. Now how do we test it?

Quote:
For me we are like fish in a pond living in 4 dimensions not even aware of the world outside the pond of hyperspace and the intelligent s (beings) that are living in the hidden worlds.


Well this is not you. This is what Abbot's "Flatland", Kaku's "Hyperspace" and Greene's Strings Theory all say in one form or another.

Quote:
Maybe all those people who saw crafts are totally mistaken and all the trace cases are hoaxes but this is the evidence we have. The other option is to say all are lying and making up stuff thats is for me more based on believe than the believe in testimony and trace cases.


My stance, which I think is fairly representative of the scientific community, is not to deny what the people see but to questions what their interpretation of the events were. The fundamental problem, as posed to Why_do above, is that there are a slew of explanations, from extra dimensions to extra terrestrial to purely terrestrial, and the "evidence" we have so far doesn't allow us to cut down the options any. That is why all the photos and hearsay are not useful as "scientific evidence" for they don't help us narrow down our imagination of possibilities to the certainty of the reality of what a UFO truly is. And that is also why when someone says it WAS a UFO, no doubt about it, we understand that there is no doubt in the persons mind but that there is plenty of doubt outside that mind. People take that as science dismissing UFO's when it's quite the opposite: we accept the possibility until such time as it's proven wrong... but that doesn't make it right, dig? smile

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: fastlane69] #209014
05/31/08 11:44
05/31/08 11:44
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sebcrea Offline
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The pond example is a message it doesn't care who is the messenger the universe is not about us, typical human thinking from your side.

Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: fastlane69] #209018
05/31/08 12:38
05/31/08 12:38
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AlbertoT Offline
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More important in my eyes is the fact that EM radiation from the edge of the visible universe seems to behavive exactly as here. This gives credence to the idea that our Local Laws of Physics are actually Global laws.

Of course there is the catch 22 that maybe EM radiation follows the same rules because we INTERPRET the results following those rules and maybe it's an illusion.



The light spectrum of remote stars is not like the sun spectrum , it is quite different
For these reason scientists thought that the stars at edge of universe were made of unknown elements

At the time universe was supposed to be stable but it is expanding
Some stars are moving away at a speed close to the speed of light

If you take into account the relativism of time and space than you can recalculate the frequency of their spectrum

You will get a light spectrum like our sun

This can not be a mere coincidence or due to catch 22

The whole universe, at least the visible one, is really uniform



Last edited by AlbertoT; 05/31/08 12:56.
Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: AlbertoT] #209036
05/31/08 15:35
05/31/08 15:35
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AlbertoT Offline
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Just to complete this topic
My simulation was of course a rather rough one, even though I suppose that anybody could easily got the point unless he want just to make issues

However more sophisticated computer simulations have been proposed to confirm or refute Fermi's paradox
All of them led to absurd results

I quote one of them :

quote


Using a computer simulation of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, Rasmus Bjork, a physicist at the Niels Bohr institute in Copenhagen, proposed that a single civilisation might build eight intergalactic probes and launch them on missions to search for life. Once on their way each probe would send out eight more mini-probes, which would head for the nearest stars and look for habitable planets.

Mr Bjork confined the probes to search only solar systems in what is called the "galactic habitable zone" of the Milky Way, where solar systems are close enough to the centre to have the right elements necessary to form rocky, life-sustaining planets, but are far enough out to avoid being struck by asteroids, seared by stars or frazzled by bursts of radiation.

He found that even if the alien ships could hurtle through space at a tenth of the speed of light, or 30,000km a second, - Nasa's current Cassini mission to Saturn is plodding along at 32km a second - it would take 10bn years, roughly half the age of the universe, to explore just 4% of the galaxy. His study is reported in New Scientist today.

Like humans, alien civilisations could shorten the time to find extra-terrestrials by picking up television and radio broadcasts that might leak from colonised planets. "Even then, unless they can develop an exotic form of transport that gets them across the galaxy in two weeks it's still going to take millions of years to find us," said Mr Bjork.

unquote

For those who are interested the article can be downloaded from the " New Scientist today " web site
6 pages complete with graphics and pictures



Last edited by AlbertoT; 05/31/08 18:20.
Re: Vatican says aliens could exist [Re: AlbertoT] #209061
05/31/08 18:22
05/31/08 18:22
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PHeMoX Offline
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He found that even if the alien ships could hurtle through space at a tenth of the speed of light, or 30,000km a second, - Nasa's current Cassini mission to Saturn is plodding along at 32km a second - it would take 10bn years, roughly half the age of the universe, to explore just 4% of the galaxy. His study is reported in New Scientist today.


All this really shows is that the galaxy is immensely huge. That's nothing new and can be derived practically from just looking at the stars in my humble opinion.

It doesn't really say anything useful about whether it might be crawling with life or almost empty with our planet being literally the only one with life. It only says it might be likely that even though a civilization tries to search for life, it may not ever find it because of the huge size of the galaxy.
Studies that search for planets with similar conditions are much more valuable in my opinion, contrary to these statistics-based fantasies.

Why? Well first of all, because planet-colonizing and or discovering alien races (that might have the ability to visit earth if they knew where we are) implies a civilization that's highly intelligent AND technologically way more advanced than we are.

There's no logical reason to assume that no alien race could ever figure out how to "fly" at speeds of 30.000km per second or far higher. There are multiple (albeit extremely sci-fi compared to our own technology) solutions... worm-hole travel, achieving near-light speed and what not more.

So, distances to overcome may be huge in our galaxy, but if we assume there are aliens as intelligent or even much more intelligent than we are... why not assume that their technology might be much more advanced as well? It only makes sense that IF some of the UFOs spotted here on earth are indeed of extra-terrestrial origin, that their technology is more than capable of dealing with the problems of interstellar travel, light speed-limits and what not more.

Basically all this theoretical talk is pointless anyway as there's no way to check any of these theories (yet), but it's crazy how some people think similar kind of rules would HAVE to apply to alien civilizations as would apply to us, not realizing those aliens might have figured out things we have not.

Don't forget that our higher-level technology is only something of say the last 200 years or so, with the more important stuff going on the last 80 years or so. Now just imagine a alien civilization that has been technologically capable to invent and discover things ten or hundred times longer than we are. Suddenly our greatest inventions might not be so great compared to the knowledge those aliens may have.

Again, though.. it's all theoretical.


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