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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: Nardulus]
#212319
06/21/08 15:25
06/21/08 15:25
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 51
ArtimusBena
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 51
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If you didn't remember the music, the music wasn't memorable.
*by the way, a lot of people play games to feel like they're in a movie--just a thought :)*
~I'm pretty sure I'm uncertain.
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: ArtimusBena]
#212413
06/22/08 11:01
06/22/08 11:01
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121 Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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This is clearly a fact of personal preferences how you experience the music in a game. Nardulus did not remember Bioshock's music. I love it that much that I often stand still just to listen to the songs playing in the jukebox or gramophones. I saved the sound track as mp3 for my media player and I often stay a long time in the main menu of games just to listen to its music until the end.
Nevertheless music is exchangeable in many games and not the selling-point. But it is important to make it professional. Wrong music, bad voice acting or bad animations can ruin in. It can destroy the feeling, the immersion or the experience.
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: JetpackMonkey]
#212772
06/24/08 04:07
06/24/08 04:07
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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isn't the original topic about whining divas? convincing someone who is missing an appreciation of music that it's actually really valuable is like trying to convince a gay guy to be straight. the fact that those concerned in either article are whinging about it is just ridiculous. Yes, the technology is important, but it’s the human performances within them that people really connect to that's funny. i don't think he's ever played a GTA game. give him a go at GTAII and maybe he'll see the error of his ways. i think sound, music and decent voice-acting are hugely important for the atmosphere and enjoyment of a game, but nowhere near enough to justify royalties when the people who put hard work in get paid a flat rate. the second guy will hopefully read his next contract before he gives someone else the rights to his music (which, btw, should be self-explanatory). julz
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: JibbSmart]
#212825
06/24/08 12:49
06/24/08 12:49
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121 Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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Many people become some kind of Divas if they don't really understand and appreciate the work of other people. Many of them under-estimate what the others do. I read that often especially here in the GS forums: - programmers against artists (woahh, whiny, we have nothing to showcase, but you have)
- graphics vs. gameplay (whiny, whoaa, shaders are evil, good old 80s graphics are better, gameplay rules)
- 3d artists vs. 2d artists (your models look bad without good textures)
- visual art against music (your game feels like dead without good music)
- voice actors against the rest of the world (you need my unique voice otherwise you fail)
- technology x against technology y (if you dont have that feature then just code it with Lite-C, but never use y)
But as you see in most cases: It is just simple minded. You need all of them. Dont fight against elements that belong to your production. If you deal with Multimedia then think about the small word "multi"  in combination with "media". And then think about music and graphic again! At the end there should not be a reason to convince someone about the importance of certain multimedia elements. And there should not be complains or bad words against any elements except you dont want to make games. But if still some people become Divas then they are just simple minded and dont have enough knowledge about the hard work of the other ones. Dismissed...
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: Nardulus]
#213089
06/25/08 19:39
06/25/08 19:39
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 286
DestroyTheRunner
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 286
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ok nardulus Its obvious that we are different people. So lets say, just for fun, 50% of players of the world are like you, they dont remenber the music and it doesnt matter to them, the other half is like me, That remenbers the music,enjoys it, feels more like real/immersed in whats happening in the game. That means if you sell a game with no music at all or bad music, the opinion of the 50% players that enjoy music it wont be as good as if it has good music! As an example ME, GTA san andreas would not give me that 'reality' feeling without those hundreds of hours of 'fake' radio stations. I would probably play the game 50% less without those radios. Metal gear solid, music+cinematics helped this game to achieve a new level of desireness( based in my opinion and lots of others players i talked about this game) anyway as before, the guy/team responsable for this hours and hours of radio staions from GTA and 'orchestral/movie type of music' from metal gear has its value! And it was not made in two or three days. it took work! again not saying, 'ooo im a musician, pay me like a cd record' but...i think GOOOOD music if far beyong "just something to fill´s background noise" because in the end we are different on the music subject 
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: DestroyTheRunner]
#213186
06/26/08 09:23
06/26/08 09:23
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
FBL
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
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Left beside all the whining and blah from musician/vocie actor side... (I don't know the business enough and I don't want to argue about this stuff) There ARE games which would be long forgotten if they didn't have such great music. Search some videos on youtube where some people took their time and have put together the best of music from console games. You will be surprised how many forgotten and even unknown and bad games there are listed. Go to sites like amigaremix.com or remix.kwed.org - the music of seveal games lives on - and that's cool 
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: DestroyTheRunner]
#213224
06/26/08 13:53
06/26/08 13:53
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,835 Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Nardulus
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,835
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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To set the "record straight", get the pun. Having music in a game, typically, is more desirable than not. Having good music, which is subjective by the way, is better than having crappy music. Duh.....
Now that said, IMHO, music's significance in a game is relatively minor compared to the design, the artwork and the coding.
Game design and solid concept art is what gets a game off the ground. This is then bolstered by solid coding of all aspects of the game from a goal system, to resposive inputs, to AI. Finally you add in some music, and some sound effects and voice.
So yes, if a musician is not happy with a reasonable compensation for time worked on the music or actual time spent doing voice work, then they are as Fastlane described "Whiny Diva's" I will also add Greedy....
Being paid a 100K for voice work that probably took only one month of real time work, is high compensation, asking for more after agreeing to the contract is a Whiny Diva. Musician's that require high $'s for music can and do fall into this same trap also. There is so much royalty free music available, why would you feel a need to charge large $'s and particapte in profits, for a couple months of work, on adding somthing that is the lowest priority in most games.... We call that the "Tail wagging the dog". Companies that allow this will be out of business quickly....
There are the few games that music is the key, and yes then the musicians should particapte in a larger sense. For most game genres, music is filler, and yes good filler is better than bad filler.
Please point to some instances where musician's in movies have made big bucks on score's. This is rare, and most score musicians do not particapate in a movies profit distribution..... John Williams is an exception to this rule.
Ken
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Re: Have game musicians become whiny divas?
[Re: Nardulus]
#213272
06/26/08 17:43
06/26/08 17:43
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377 USofA
fastlane69
OP
Senior Expert
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OP
Senior Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
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(I don't know the business enough and I don't want to argue about this stuff)
For the sake of keeping this thread OT, please note that the topic is not as Phemox points out "This vs. That", "Music vs. Graphics"... "Music vs. Gameplay", etc and no offense Firo, but I DID post this in "Game Buisness" instead of "Game Design" so we could discuss the business side of this. So please, no one says that music is not important. Drop that line of arguement. The point that we are trying to get across IS a buisness point and that is exactly as Nard says: music's significance in a game is relatively minor compared to the design, the artwork and the coding. And yet it "seems" like more and more musicians feel otherwise. However like Nard, I can't think of a single counter-example (with the exception of the aforementioned Music games like DDR and GH) where music is more important than design, code, and art. I know a lot of game music I personally like but that's not the point (although others want to make it the point). The point is what is fair compensation for a music job done. And then complaining when having gotten MORE than your fair share. Personal game music tastes are irrelevant; this is a purely business decision. So please, if you are here to argue Game Design and how Music is the most important thing for YOU in a game , please start a thread in the Game Design forum. If on the other hand you think that Music has a larger role than we are giving it BUSINESS credit for or if you think that Musicians deserve more than what they are getting, then have at it! We'd love to hear it, you whiny bitches!! 
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