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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: fastlane69] #222396
08/19/08 04:00
08/19/08 04:00
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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fastlane69  Offline OP
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I don't understand what the problem is here, JCL.

Every person who has used the GS Network engine says it can't do MMOG. EVERYONE.

Every person who has used the GS Network engine says it can't even do MP properly. EVERYONE.

What is it going to take for our message to get through?
When will you admit that DPLAY is the wrong network to support so we can start thinking about the right network?

Or put another way, I and others have been trying to do MP and MMP applications for 5 years... exactly how long have you and Conitec been trying to create a MMOG that your experience should trump the entire MP communities experience? wink

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: fastlane69] #222398
08/19/08 04:09
08/19/08 04:09
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Spirit Offline

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I think the solution is simple, when there really is something wrong with the MP functions why dont you post a bug report?

Project failure is always sad but there can be many reasons for that and if they are not technical you cant blame Gamestudio. You say only some guy told you this and another guy told you that, but when you worked 5 years with multiplayer you should know yourself very well which of the MP functions does not work. When all functions work and your project failed nevertheless its not Conitecs fault. But when some MP function really does not work, put the problem on the bug forum and it will be fixed and we all will be happy.

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: Spirit] #222399
08/19/08 04:26
08/19/08 04:26
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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Ok, let's get this out of the way right now for it started with JCL and it's snowballed: I don't see WHERE, anywhere, I have stated that my project is a failure.

I have created a viable MMOG solution which right now suffers from a "incompatible engine" error that pops up for no reason and is unpublishible (works in development but not when we publish). Thus, by using only session_connect and the send functions, I have created what is a few bugs short of an MMOG.

And in order to do this, I had to turn off all GS Dead Reckoning AND entity update routines... the former because it was useless as anyone will tell you and the latter because it update all entities in a server (that's really MMOG friendly there!).

As well, we had to create a dll so I could store a players handle in a DB because of GS's notorious "last digit non-precision" when outputing vars outside the GS engine which meant that we could not store a Handle accurately using the native GS code.

As well, I had to create a series of lookup tables and other DLL to handle the fact that in my architecture, what I believe is the ONLY MMOG Architecture with native GS, clients and the "server farm" are all bottlenecked at the one true server, thus making a single failure point at the server (which anyone will tell you is bad network architecture design as there is no fail-back option).

So you see my friends, it is not because my project is a failure that I ask for these changes but rather because it is a success IN SPITE OF GS NETWORKING that prompts me to this thread. wink

So please, don't read between the lines and please stay on topic; you too JCL: this thread is not about my project, it's about the network engine, it's past, present, and future functionality. There is no need to bring my project into this "as a failure" to discuss this point though I am more than willing to share any aspects of my architecture and code to help you understand my point.

And furthermore Spirit, it's not that the functions are buggy. Again, please stay on topic. It's that the entire GS network architecture is flawed, barely MP capable, and not conducive towards MMOGs.

If you don't believe me, consider that using GS Networking, with all functions working perfectly, would have the server updating every entity about every other entities position every client_update tick. Does that sound like a MMOG friendly architecture?

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: fastlane69] #222400
08/19/08 06:10
08/19/08 06:10
Joined: Aug 2000
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Baunatal, Germany
Tobias Offline

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I have not done much with multiplayer and maybe I'm wrong but I can tell you that you can store player handles in a var.

I store handles in a var all the time. Handles are 32 bit and a var is 32 bit also. There is no "last digit non-precision" because handles have no digits. Technically, handles are long integers. For converting handles to char you just use itoa() and lose no digit.

I also did not understand what you said about the architecture, as far as I've learned, client-server systems control the entities on the servers and send the speed updates to the clients. That's how MMOGs work. The book I've read was "Multiplayer Game Programming" by LaMothe. Other engines I know do it the same way.


Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: Tobias] #222402
08/19/08 07:31
08/19/08 07:31
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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Quote:
but I can tell you that you can store player handles in a var.


Have you tried storing them outside of the engine? wink

There is a chance that this has been fixed, but store several entity handles in a text file and then look at the handles... you will find that several handles repeat themselves in the last (third) decimal digit because of the lack of precision in the last (third) decimal place. And since Handles use all digits, including decimal, for information, this means that if you do this you can't retrieve the right entity. Hence, Handles cannot be stored in a text file nor a Database with native GS. There are several workarounds but the point is they are workarounds to this faulty system and every workaround gets us further and further away from native GS. Does this seem MMOG friendly to you? crazy

Quote:
Client-server systems control the entities on the server and send the speed updates to the clients. That's how MMOGs work


Correct. However, the native GS Architecture sends a "speed update" to EVERY client on the server, no matter if those clients can "see" each other in the world. To give you an example, imagine a MMOG Zone based on planet Earth. If you are in the US, do you really need to know the speed of every person in Japan? Of course not and yet that is exactly what native GS Architecture does.

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: fastlane69] #222411
08/19/08 08:34
08/19/08 08:34
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Baunatal, Germany
Tobias Offline

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Sure you can store entity handles outside the engine. I use an array of handles in my C++ app that calls the engine DLL. As I said handles are nothing but long integers, so I dont know for what reason you are not able to store them or what you expect Conitec to fix.

If you think theres something wrong with handles, then Spirit is right you should post a bug report, but if storing handles is really one of the things that prevent you from finishing your MMOG, then it seems to me that you have not had much chances anyway. I'm no expert but if you want I can write you a handle storing function in 5 minutes.

Also, sending of entity updates only to close clients is certainly nice but I dont think that this prevents you from doing a MMOG either. When the world is divided in zones, the servers only send updates to entities in that zone anyway, and in no MMOG you would place the US and Japan in the same zone.

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: Tobias] #222414
08/19/08 08:44
08/19/08 08:44
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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Quote:
Also, sending of entity updates only to close clients is certainly nice but I cant imagine that this prevents you from doing a MMOG either.


This is not just "nice" for MMP, but "necessary" and native GS's inability to deal with this to date is very much preventing ANYONE from creating a MMOG.

If you can't see why, then please, respectfully, as someone who admits to not having much working experience with MP, please stay clear of this conversation. wink

Quote:
As I said handles are nothing but long integers,


Under Lite-C this is true. But for those of us that have developed under C-Script (still supported by Conitec last time I checked), handles are Vars and Vars do not "export" well.

Quote:
but if this handle stuff is one of the things that prevent you from doing a multiplayer game,


Please read the entire thread before commenting as there are a TON of other issues (most listed above) that affect the ability to achieve a native GS MMOG of which the handle is but one and not even the most important one.

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: Tobias] #222416
08/19/08 08:45
08/19/08 08:45
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FBL Offline
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Here you go... "C++ App"
This is not native GS anymore.

What fastlane intends to say and obviously nobody understands: in order to make an mmog, you have to a lot of workarounds, many of them as DLL, because the standard network support does not support these things.
Selective updating of entities is just one of those things. Imagine how cool it would be if the engine took care of that. Bt instead, you have to turn off *any* automatic sending issued by the engine and do it all on your own.

Not what I'd expect from a MMOG capable engine.

Then again I've never tried MMOG, but I've had those thoughts when I built some network framework for 4 players ("what would I have to do to keep traffic down when having more players?").

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: FBL] #222417
08/19/08 08:48
08/19/08 08:48
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fastlane69 Offline OP
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Quote:
What fastlane intends to say and obviously nobody understands:
[...]
Bt instead, you have to turn off *any* automatic sending issued by the engine and do it all on your own.

Not what I'd expect from a MMOG capable engine.


Thanks Firo. It feels like I'm talking to a wall here, especially with everyone who doesn't do MP putting their two cents in (no offense guys, I know you are just trying to help smile ), and I appreciate those few of you that "get it" . cool

Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 2: Technical [Re: fastlane69] #222419
08/19/08 08:58
08/19/08 08:58
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Michael_Schwarz Offline
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I totally understand the issue, I just don't get why to make such a big thing of it. Many companies announce with big words.

Or do you really "enjoy" drinking a Coke? Is the beer you are drinking really the "best premium lager beer"? Is the PC you most recently bought really "the best PC"?

It's marketing, everyone does it. And I'm plenty sure that they still will in the future.

Is it "possible" to make an 1000-player-MMOG with 3DGS using the Acknex Network Engine? It certainly is, but it is never stated that the server would be extremely slow and that you probably have a lag of like 20 seconds. But it "is" possible.

Is it "practical" to make an 1000-player-MMOG with 3DGS using the Acknex Network Engine? No.

Infact, it is ridicously impractical to do so, but still possible.

Use DLL's, period. Even companies using the U2/3 engine need to use plugins. Or even have a look at the Quake 3 engine, many modern games are stillmade with i, but the developers need a lot of plugins in order to include today's features like shaders and the such.

It isn't that big of a deal.

Last edited by Michael_Schwarz; 08/19/08 09:04.

"Sometimes JCL reminds me of Notch, but more competent" ~ Kiyaku
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