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Re: See Through Polygons #2210
04/19/01 18:14
04/19/01 18:14

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I think Fink .. even in 3rd person also we can see.... but its very much noticible in 1st person....

Regards,
Sac



Re: See Through Polygons #2211
04/19/01 18:39
04/19/01 18:39

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Yes after further testing the level it does indeed happen in 3rd person view also.

Re: See Through Polygons #2212
04/19/01 21:35
04/19/01 21:35

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Yes it happens also in 3rd person mode it is just easier to see because of the camera angle. But it is not necessary to be right up against the surface. If you are next to the ground then it seems you must be closer to the wall when you look up to get the effect. If you are about 25% up from the bottom of of the wall it seems like you do not have to be as close to get the same effect.

Also if you go back to my first post you will see that I rotated the wall 90 degrees. You will not get this effect then when looking up or down but you will get it if you vary your view angle in a horizontal direction. So it seems that looking along the long edge of the poygon is where the problem appears to be most pronounced.

Ron


Re: See Through Polygons #2213
04/20/01 14:20
04/20/01 14:20

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Doug!

Did you download the level that I posted and try it out?

Ron


Re: See Through Polygons #2214
04/21/01 01:07
04/21/01 01:07

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Ok, from reading everyone's posts it looks like I'm having a different problem, although it involves dissappearing polygons. I'm going to post a new topic to get help for the prob I'm having. I hope you guys get this problem figured out and I'll give you any information on it that I find.

Re: See Through Polygons #2215
04/21/01 03:47
04/21/01 03:47
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I've looked at it but I'm not sure if it is a bug. You can see though the 'table object' because the camera can be placed inside of it (you need to make sure that the camera does not enter solid objects). The cliff wall is a model so 1) you are not going to get good collision on it (it uses a bounding box) and 2) the 'near' plane of the camera is going to clip any polygon it encounters so the closer you get the more polygons get clipped (this is the same problem Fink is having with his cube). You should really replace this with a map entity.


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Re: See Through Polygons #2216
04/21/01 15:40
04/21/01 15:40

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First is the problem does seem to be confirmed by others so I have remove the level file (Worlds.zip) and replaced it with the avi (Polygon.zip) just in case anyone else wishes to view the problem and again it is at the same link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronholmes/

I understand about being able to pass through the surface of the table prefab model and that is what I thought but I just needed a confirmation on that point. There was also just a very slight chance that this was not the case and that it remotely was related to the transparent polygon issue.

I would just be so thrilled if I could make this one little canyon piece a map entity. But there seems to be a problem of converting a model into a map entity because of the vast differences in the file content of each. I have made every effort that I could to have this done but it seems that no programmer wants to tackle it. Now I think that it would be next to impossible but not impossible to make this canyon wall in MED with less than 150 polygons as I have done. I do not believe that the curved surfaces can be reproduced nor the texture that is on this canyon wall can be applied in the traditional way and have it appear as it does. The texture is just to complex to do by hand and since the texture is one bit map I think that there just might be some alignment problems if it is broken up and applied as separate pieces. And since the problem appears also with a simple cube that was produced in MED I don't think that my model making process has anything to do with it or the fact that the texture is one bitmap. Again, I would just love to replace this canyon wall with a map entity but I do not see how that is possible so it seems that I am stuck using a model for my canyon.

Now since we cannot change a model (mdl) into a map entity so that we get surface contact collision detection I have worked around the problem using additional invisible walls placed along the model sides. In this way I will not be restricted in using the bounding box of the model. I don't think I will have a problem with to many polygons trying to be rendered at any one time in the level because the canyon will not be straight but will wind back and forth so the view will be some what restricted And I don't think that there will be a frame speed decrease either but this may introduce other problems that I have yet to encounter.

Doug, you mentioned that the "Near plane of the camera is going to clip any polygon it encounters so the closer you get the more polygons get clipped".

I have run a search within the manual and cannot find any reference to the "Near plane of the camera". My interpretation of this statement is that within the plane of view of the camera. But what exactly is:

1. The Near plane of view? And can it be adjusted or changed and if so how do we do it?

2. Can you give some numbers for a size or distance that would be involved when clipping would first start to happen?

3. Does the clipping only happen with models or does it also happen with map entities?

4. When you said that the closer that you get the more polygons would get clipped. That would seem to imply that you would not be able to make contact with the other surface without having the polygons being clipped. If you have a model of a canyon wall or other object you would expect to be able to make direct contact with the surface without the surface disappearing. I think I am missing something hear as that does not sound right. Can you elaborate on this a little?

5. Is there a maximum size of a model or map entity that we have to stay under so as not to encounter this problem?

6. Or is there a maximum size in quants that a polygon is allowed to be on its longest side that we have to stay under so as not to encounter this problem?

7. Or is there a maximum viewing angle referenced from the horizontal axis that we have to be restricted to or stay within so as not to encounter this problem?

8. Is there maybe a minimum distance or space that we have to maintain from the surface so as not to encounter this problem? If this is the case I cannot see how you can make the environment realistic when moving through the world.

I do realize that your statement has brought up more questions but it has also brought to light some more experiments that I can run to give you more input. The biggest problem that I have is that I am doing these experiments blindly as I and the others that are having this problem do not know the internal workings or limitations of the A4 engine. Only you and JCL can properly solve this problem or direct the interested parties to do some specific tests that will help in coming up with a solution or a work around for this clipping problem.

I did not notice this problem until I upgraded to A4 4.23. That revision incorporated a change that fixed the texture crawling or distortion problem. Tomorrow I am going to back track to A4 4.17 demo if I still have it. If not I have 4.18 and the upgrades to the other revisions that followed. I will determine exactly in what revision the clipping first appears or maybe it is clipping in all of them but that I only noticed it in 4.23.

I apologize for being a pain in the butt with some of the things that I have brought to the surface but the way I go about things are usually not the way everyone else does them and that process seems to show up problems that might otherwise not be found until a much later date if at all. It does not matter if it is a bug in A4 or not but that the source of the problem is brought out and either a direct solution or a work around is found so that it does not present a problem anymore. So we do need your expertise and in a collaborated effort of all of us we can put this behind us and continue with fortitude to produce that commercial game that most of us are shooting for. We are all on the same boat and it is really up to all of us to help as much as we can or the ship and all of its crew (Us) just might sink to the bottom. Please if you can answer in as much detail as possible with all possible solutions any and possible work around that you can think of. The more information that you give us the more information and feedback we can give to you. And sorry for being so long winded but I did not know a shorter way to say everything.

Ron


Re: See Through Polygons #2217
04/22/01 20:20
04/22/01 20:20

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Woooowwwwww!!, Ron .. too big list of questions .... , I hope doug will answer all ..... even i want to know the answers of these questions... and i think the near plane means.. than for a camera there is a area of the view which is a area covered by two planes.. one the near plane and the other is the far plane... both of these combine and say what is the viewing area of the camera..... and near plane is the nearest place a camera can see anything before this will not be seen by the camera... Doug i think i'm correct.. please rectify me if i'm not.....

and doug and ron , if u guys don't mind.. can i also add one more question to Ron's list....

When we say the reasons for the transparent polygons is because of the reasons what doug has given... fine... but doug tell me I have a block or a map entity in my level .. which i go near i don't see what is there beyond it.. but i can just simply walk through that object..... why is it ??? where is the collision detected ???
Please help me.... there is a major problem... I have a small wall like blocks kept at the edges of clif like mountain so that my player don't fall of the mountain ... but the problem of this walk through blocks.. my player can happly walk through it and fall of the clif... don't u think it looks bad !!! Please help me.....

With regards,
Sac



Re: See Through Polygons #2218
04/22/01 20:32
04/22/01 20:32

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Sac,
You can as Im sure you realise place an invisible block around your models so collision detection works and your player doesnt fall off the level. I am basically now sticking them around every model I put in the level its a pain. Its been brought up in another thread that some guys are trying to use models for doors and are able to walk thru them, placing an invisible block over it in this situation is no use. Its weird that some models you can walk straight thru and others detect like map entities but I guess a lot of that depends on how the model was made its size etc. It is a shame collision detection doesnt seem to work reliably on models.

Re: See Through Polygons #2219
04/23/01 03:29
04/23/01 03:29

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Fink ,
I understand what u say .... but its really painfull....... and if this problem happens in default blocks ..... then if we keep an another invisible block around it.. its still can't give a 100% solution for that... remember i told that it happens in normal blocks and map entities... and its also clear that not all the blocks and map entities have this problem.. some entities only... and the problem is i can't find out which one unless i run throught the level .... and still i don't know why is this happening ???

I have captured some of the screenshots showing what i'm saying.... check this...


in this picture...

a, b are ate two different places but copy of the same block .. there is collision and the player couldn't walk through it...
c is the the screenshot of the same block in b but a little further down .. where the player can pass over the block, if u notice player will be standig right in the centre of the width of the block ... I don't know why is this happening ....

and if u see the next set of the pics... d,e are the pics of the same block on which the player is standing... but f is the same block when the player moves a little ahead... and he falls in side a unseen hole and gets stuck in the middle of the block and u can see the outerspace of the level very clearly... why is this happening ????

Doug/JCL, any one, please explain me and help me out...!!!

With regards,
Sac.


[This message has been edited by sac (edited 22 April 2001).]


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