This is rather lengthy and I apologize from the beginning for that. I wrote this in Word and thought I would share it here. Despite its length, I am certain I did not cover everything nor did I get everything right, but I thought I would pass this off for thought. I will post my rather lengthy document in the next post.

For the Christian, the Bible is the book that tells them all that they need to know about god, life, the afterlife and the hows and whys of it all. This is why it is so important for so many Christian denominations to establish that the Bible is without error, was preserved by god and inspired by the very spirit of god as he breathed upon the very authors of the sacred text. For most Protestants and Baptists, for example, the Bible and god are so closely linked that belief in the one is to believe in the other. This can be established biblically.

For example, the Bible says that god created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and that he did so by his spoken word (and god said, let there be light). Later in the book of Genesis, Abraham had a question of doubt. God gave an answer and Abraham believed the word of god. As a result, the Bible records that god "counted it to him for righteousness" and Abraham was made righteous before god by his faith in god's word. As we approach the New Testament, we find that the "word of god" becomes forever linked with the person of Jesus of Nazareth. In John chapter 1, for example, we are told:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

And in verse 14 of the same chapter we read:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And thus the Bible presents Jesus as the word of god in human flesh. Just as righteousness before god was achieved by Abraham by his faith in god's word, in like manner, according to the New Testament, a man is made righteous by his faith in Jesus, the word of god.

From this we can see that both Testaments teach the way to god (through righteousness) is the same: faith in the word of god.

The Bible is proclaimed to be the very word of god. Because god is declared to be perfect and without error, then it would stand to reason that his word would also be perfect and without error. Jesus, the word of god, is declared to be without sin and to be perfect and without error (after all, he is "the truth"). God, Jesus and the written word are so closely linked together that it is difficult to talk about the one without talking about the other. It would stand to reason that the Bible, if it is the very word of god, would, in like manner, be perfect, spotless and without error. If the pages of the holy writ could be proven to contain error then what would that say about god himself?

There are those that believe that they do not need to accept all of the Bible. For example, some people accept the moral code of the Bible, but reject the miracles recorded therein. On what grounds do they do this? Human reasoning? Because they do not "believe" in miracles? What criteria do they use to make such assumptions? How can a mere man weed through what is proposed to be the very words of god and determine what he did and did not say? How can a mere mortal determine, with certainty, what is the word of god and what is not? Wouldn't the one that says a certain passage in the Bible is not from god, be god (or at least claim to be) in order for them to know for certain that the particular passage was not from god? Or could it be that they have a source outside of the Bible itself that helps them to determine what is and is not from the mouth of god? And if a source, how can it be known if this source is divine or simply another imagination of man?

While I don't claim to know the answers to all of that, I do want to examine the concept of the veracity of the Bible. Whether a person believes in the inerrancy of the Bible or not, all who claim to be "Christian" rely , to some degree, on the pages of this book to determine what they know about god and how he functions in the affairs of men. This is why it is so important to examine the Scriptures to see if there is any error within. If god is perfect and his word is perfect and Jesus and the word are so closely linked together, then you would expect perfection in his word. If there is error within, then what does that say about god? About Jesus? What does it say about the trust-worthiness of what we read in the pages of the Scriptures themselves?

In another thread, some challenged me on the basis of logic to defend my position about why I no longer believe in the god of the Bible nor in his Christ. While I will not speak of all the reasons, I would like to address some of them. I will begin with a common prophecy that most Christians know. While this prophecy is not the crux of what I believe (or don't believe) I think it is a decent starting point. We will begin by looking at Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin birth as found in Isaiah 7:14:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

When one reads this verse it seems obvious that this is speaking of Jesus. And the Apostle Matthew would agree:

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. -Matthew 1:22-23

For most people, this is the end of the line. If the Bible says it, that settles it! However, what if Matthew is in error? What if Isaiah 7:14 is not speaking about Jesus at all? Let's go back and examine the verse in Isaiah to see what it is all about.

It would help to put it in a bit of context. If we begin reading in the very first verse of Isaiah chapter seven, then we can find out what is going on.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, [that] Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind. - Isaiah 7:1-2

As can be seen from the verses above, Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel, were planning to go to war against Jerusalem. In those days, the nation of Israel had split into two kingdoms. The northern kingdom was called Israel and the southern, Judah. Jerusalem was the capital city of Judah. As we can see from these verses, the two northern kings had banded together with the purpose of setting out to destroy the capital city of Judah. Ahaz, the current king of Judah, was afraid as he was very much outnumbered. Because god, according to the verses that follow, wanted to calm the fears of Ahaz and let him know that god was with Judah, he sent to Ahaz the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah was to tell Ahaz not to fear:

And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah. - Isaiah 7:4

God went even further and told Isaiah to ask Ahaz to declare a sign that god would perform in order to further help Ahaz know that god was with him (verse 11). Ahaz refused and god, a bit angry, determines to give him a sign of his own choosing:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. - Isaiah 7:14

This is the context of the passage ... or most of it. We will examine what comes after verse 14 a bit further on. Before getting too deeply into the passage, it might be helpful to know when this was all taking place. According to Bible commentaries, Ahaz ruled in Judah in the early 700's B.C. (about 720 +/-). So the events that we are reading about take place about 700 years before Christ was born. This is important to keep in mind.

This brings up an immediate question: How does Isaiah 7:14 apply to Ahaz if the promise is not to be fulfilled some 700 years later? In other words, if the sending of Isaiah and the sign given were to comfort the heart of Ahaz because of the enemy that was about to attack him, how could a prophecy about someone that would be born 700 years later accomplish that? Please keep this in mind as we examine the passage in context a bit further.

One thing that is interesting is that many will stop at verse 14 and do not even think about the verses that follow. However, verse 14 is not in a vacuum. In fact, one vital rule of interpreting Scripture is context. It is imperative that the student of the Bible examine any passage within the context in which it was written. And, yet, many seem to violate this principle when it comes to Isaiah 7:14. Could this be because an honest evaluation of the passage would show that Mattew was wrong and the passage does not apply to Jesus of Nazareth? We shall see.

Let's begin by adding verses 15 and 16 onto verse 14:

hey dan, lots of it didn't make it through (look at your last line "Let's begin by adding verses 15 and 16 onto verse 14:").

i'm very keen to see what else you have to say, especially since your writing demonstrates you've had a very good understanding of your (late) faith.

julz

Dan,
Is this supposed to be an error because you apply the law of contradiction to it? What do you know about the law of contradiction Dan, is it physical in your brain? Can you demonstrate that everything must be subject to the law of contradiction? Is it a convention among men? Maybe then I can stipulate a law that says the law of contradiction is not universal and invarient. You have no hope Dan.

You obviously didn't spend alot of time in prayer seeking God to 'open your understanding that you might understand the scriptures'. You of course will have Jesus (as in Lk.24) misinterpreting the bible. Dan the prophecy of the scripture has multiple layers so that a verse which historically was a reference to David in the psalms will also be a prophecy of Christ, will also be a prophecy of Israel in the tribulation and yet will be a comfort to believers today. Psalm 69 is an example.
If you studied the Old Testament you should understand types, shadows, similtudes, figures etc. God spoke by the prophets in times past in "divers manners". Jesus likewise spoke in parables to confound those wise in their own conceit. You are demonstrating how exact it works. He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

p.s. Can you get to the point a bit faster? Your attacks on the bible are as long as your sermons.

Almost as dry too. It's easier to read, as you can at least read at your own pace. I think maybe he thinks he shall be heard for his much speaking.

Poor Dan here is attempting to put human limitations on God. What's worse, since he can only comprehend what he's been taught about the supposed correct methods of Bible interpretation (my words not his), he limits himself strictly to the accepted methods of Bible interpretation (use a very deep, scholarly sounding voice when saying that). It's just too bad many of today's "scholarly" methods of Bible interpretation are not God's methods, but those created by man. And anything man touches is corrupt (it's evolution in action folks). The emphasis on the extra-Biblical historical data is a definite flaw in Dan's teachings I've heard on SermonAudio as well as in this post so far. People who reject the Bible as perfectly preserved and accurate often tend to accept other data (like Bible commentators or Church fathers or secular historians) as fact, or at least give them more weight than the Bible. Even Dan, as a God denying, Bible rejecting, heretic has no problem using Bible commentators as a valid source for the time frame in which Isaiah was writing, then rejecting the prophetical application of the verse (in other words picking and choosing what he wants to believe). This is the unfortunate plight of the Laodicean church age we live in. Bible rejectors from the pulpit beget Bible rejectors in the pews (beget more Bible rejectors from the pulpit....and on and on it goes).

Daniel (not to be confused with the Dan in this thread) answered and said, Blessed be the name of God forever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

Dan, since you may never get to the point at the rate you are going, could you try to (briefly) tell us who is the son born to the virgin in Isaiah 7:14?

The only wise thing left to do is to ignore these dorks.

Thump, Thump, Thump...
All Dan is trying to do is explain himself and all The ChristToddSchultz symbiote is trying to d0 is summon Shai-Hulud here too.

Sometimes I get the feeling that ChrissTodd und Schultz are the same person. But maybe it is the Matrix or they just share the same consciousness.

Since they almost every time talk to each other - they could do it in private as well.

I'm sorry, which of these is "perfectly preserved and accurate"?


(AAT) The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, 1939.
(ABT) The Afro Bible Translation
(ATB) The Alternate Translation Bible
(ASV) American Standard Version (purchase ASV)
(AB) The Amplified Bible (editions for sale)
(ALT) Analytical-Literal Translation
(ASL) American Sign Language Translation
(AV) Authorized Version (same as KJV)
(Bar) The New Testament: A New Translation, by William Barclay
(BLB) The Better Life Bible
(BWE) Bible in WorldWide English
The Bible Gateway Translation Information (see BWE description)
(CCB) Christian Community Bible
(CE) The Common Edition: New Testament
(CJB) Complete Jewish Bible
Comparison with NIV
(CV) Concordant Version
(CEV) Contemporary English Version
CEV online
Energion review
Interview: On the Shoulders of King James
Ken Anderson review
Michael Marlow review
Tyndale website overview
(Dar) Darby
(DR) Douay-Rheims
(DRP) David Robert Palmer's translations of the gospels
(EMTV) English Majority Text Version
(ENT) Extreme New Testament (revision of Simple English Bible, below)
Forward, by Tommy Tenney
(ERV) Easy-to-Read Version
(ESV) English Standard Version
(FF) Ferrar Fenton Bible
(GLW) God's Living Word
(GNC) God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, by Heinz W. Cassirer
(GNT) Good News Translation [formerly, (GNB) Good News Bible, and (TEV) Today's English Version]
(GW) God's Word
God's Word online
Review of God's Word, by Wayne Leman
(HCSB) Holman Christian Standard Bible (online, see Access Bibles section, below
article
(HNV) Hebrew Names Version
(ICB) International Children's Bible (children's version of the NCV)
(ISB) International Standard Bible (formerly titled The Simple English Bible)
(ISV) The International Standard Version
ISV Naturalness and Comprehension Survey, by Phil Fields
(JBP) New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips
New Testament in Modern English, Revised, by J.B. Phillips
Student edition
The J. B. Phillips Translation: A Guided Tour
(JNT) Jewish New Testament: A Translation of the New Testament That Expresses Its Jewishness (see Complete Jewish Bible)
(JPS) Jerusalem Publication Society: Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures, The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text

(KJV) King James Version and recent revisions
KJV
Translators to the Reader

(DKJB) Defined King James Bible
DKJB reviewed by Joseph Ng
DKJB reviewed by David W. Cloud
(KJII) King James Version II (renamed to Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
(KJ21) King James for the 21st Century
KJV21 review
(KJ2000) King James 2000
(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (formerly named King James II)
LITV download site
The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible Frequently Asked Questions
(MKJV) Modern King James Version
alternate site
MKJV download site
(NKJV) New King James Version
(RAV) Revised Authorised Version (British edition of the NKJV), review
(RKJV) Revised King James New Testament
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(UKJV) Updated King James Version

(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(LB) Living Bible
(MAEV) Modern American English Vernacular
discussion list for MAEV
(MLB) Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version
(Mof) Bible: James Moffatt Translation (amazon.com)
(NAB) New American Bible
"The New American Bible": A Voice From the Past
(NAB) New American Bible (access entire Bible)
(NASB) New American Standard Bible
What is the philosophy of translation set forth by The Lockman Foundation?
New Berkeley Version (see Modern Language Bible)
(NCV) New Century Version
(NEB) New English Bible
(NET) New English Translation
NET Bible online
Try the NET Bible! (a critique)
An Open Letter Regarding The NET Bible, New Testament (a reply to the critique)
(NET) New Evangelical Translation
(NIrV) New Internation Reader's Version
(NIV) New International Version
The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation
(NJB) New Jerusalem Bible
(NKJV) New King James Version (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(NLV) New Life Version
(NLT) New Living Translation
The Living Bible Reborn
Re: New Living Translation (a review)
(NRSV) New Revised Standard Bible
NRSV critiqued by John H. Dobson
(NWT) New World Translation (published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses)
(OBP) The Original Bible Project
(OSB) Orthodox Study Bible
(ONT) The Original New Testament: The First Definitive Translation of the New Testament in 2000 Years, by Hugh Schonfield
(PMB) Postmodern Bible - Amos
(Rec) Recovery Version
(REB) The Revised English Bible (revision of NEB)
(RSV) Revised Standard Version
(RV) Revised Version, 1885
(RYLT) Revised Young's Literal Translation
(Sch) The Schocken Bible
(SEB) The Simple English Bible
(SENT) Spoken English New Testament
(TM) The Message
A Summary Critique: The Message, by John R. Kohlenberger III
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(TEV) Today's English Version [see (GNT) Good News Translation]
Book Review: Today's English Version (TEV)
(TNIV) Today's New International Version
TNIV website
TNIV Debate Between Dr. Wayne Grudem and Dr. Mark Strauss
TNIV links
(Tyn) Tyndale
(Wey) Weymouth
Preface to the First Edition
(WEB) World English Bible
(Wms) The New Testament in the Language of the People, by Charles B. Williams (another website)
(WNT) Wesley's New Testament
(Wuest) The New Testament (An Expanded Translation) purchase
Yes Word (update of Tyndale translation)
(YLT) Young's Literal Translation of the Bible (download entire text)
view Young's Literal Translation of the Bible
Preface to the First Edition

ChrisTodd/Schultz: Welcome to my forum. You can discuss any topics here, but must follow the forum rules. They do not allow ad hominem attacks or arguments. Should you have something specific to say about the topic theme, just bring it forward. But personal remarks or insults against another member are not tolerated. Consider this a friendly warning. Next time it's a ban.