Interesting.

Well said

I have to admit that I do in fact agree with a lot of your statements, as they do seem to be derived directly from the scripture.

How can you say this if from http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=logic&version1=9&searchtype=all...

So again I ask you, are your logic and the definition of logic I use the same? In other words, is the definition of logic I use the same as the one you are using when you say "source of logic- Jesus Christ."?

If not, please be so kind as to list these laws to showcase how they are different from accepted standard.

So you are appealing to a wikipedia article as your definition of logic. Maybe Wikipedia is your equivalent to my Bible. Perhaps we should apply the same "second person revelation" standard to you that you suggest in your earlier post. I mean until you have proved all of the "rules of logic" listed on the Wikipedia article personally, it's just hearsay. How do you know that what is said there is logical anyway? Well by using logic of course. This is using circular reasoning if you claim this.

How is so difficult to understand the problem Atheists face? The laws of logic (we'll use the information contained in said Wiki article as an example) in your opinion are true, because they are true/logical. But where did logic come from? A big bang? Billions of years of evolution not only brought about everything from nothing, but also managed to cause chemicals in peoples brains that give them logic and understanding which is universally understandable? And science and math verifies all this because they use logic? Boy, that's genius. What irrefutable proof we are faced with here. I use logic, therefore it is so. Logic is so, therefore it is true.

Q: But where did it come from?
A: God's creation reflects his nature. Man (atheists included) use the logic, science, and morality that God has given them, whether they acknowledge the source or not.

Fastlane,
Logic the word comes from LOGOS sometimes translated word (meaning a proposition). In the bible (KJV) you will need to look up wisdom and understanding. Also the word "therefore" is a good word to search. You can also look up reason and contradiction etc.
If I understand your question "is the definition of logic I use the same as the one you are using when you say "source of logic- Jesus Christ."?" I would say yes. The logic we both use finds it's source in Jesus Christ (Col.2:3).

When you had read the Wikipedia article you would know that there are listed the rules that apply to proofs. Which means that the rules themselves can not and are not to be proven. So, no circular reasoning. They are the just rules by which the logic in our brain works.

And why does our brain works by those rules? Because we can understand nature by those rules. If we had in our brain a different logic, we could not have survived in nature. So the reason for the logic rules in our brain is not the Bible, its just evolution.

And why does nature work in a way that we can understand and predict it by rules of logic? Its likewise simple, nature could have also worked in a different way and then we had a different logic, for survival in nature. Our brain will always work by the rules of logic that allows us to survive in our environment.

And all this totally without bible.

Hope this helps to understand logic a little, and to understand that logic and religion are quite two different things. Just as religion and morality are two different and as in case of the bible, even contradictory things.

Funny, using logic aurguments to prove something as abstract as faith....

No wonder Fastlane is kicking butt on this train wreck of a thread.

Not sure what Dan S. is trying to work through here but, I think that maybe this not the place for dealing with a crisis of faith....

I for one will stop reading Dans attacks at the Bible or God, no matter how well fought. I hope this may be helping Dan, but I am also offended by it.

Faith is personal and something between you and your God. Public attacks are tiresome and at times disturbing.....


Ken

I refer to my original post in this thread. It argues god's existence even without assuming he is corruptible.

And, in my humble opinion, the rules of mathematics, physics, and even logic, shouldn't have to be different for believers. To me this only sounds like one has to distort their understanding of reality to fit their thinking into teachings of the bible.

We aren't talking about wisdom nor understanding.
We are talking about logic and math.

neither logic nor math equal widom. Thus that is moot search.

However, logic can lead to understanding but from the first 100 references to "understanding" in the bible, none of them imply a logical or mathematical system. They merely state that god is the source of understanding which is a far cry from outlining a logical or mathematical system.

So if you arguement is one of substitution -- everywhere it says "wisdom" substitute "logic" -- because these are unrelated terms then you can substitute "anything" for "anything else" and that is neither logical nor rational.

So this fails to show that the bible outlines a logical and mathematical system.



What does this prove? Therefore is merely a word, it is not a logical system. For example, I can say "I am god therefore worship me". Is that a logical statement? No. It's merely a statement. If we agree on the wikipedia version, Logic needs to have a precondition, rules, and a conclusion. The bible goes straight to the conclusion while ignoring the precondition and rules.

Again, you fail to show proof that the bible lays out a system of math and logic as agreed upon us through wikipedia.



Yet he never mentions logic once. So how can we attribute something to someone (jesus) or something (bible) that makes no mention of that something?

Furthermore:

Col 2:3 --> "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Here's a bit of logic for you:

If an object is hidden, it is not in view and cannot be used.
Jesus' treasures are hidden.
Therefore, jesus treasures are not in view and cannot be used.
Jesus' treasures are widom and knowledge.
Therefore, wisdom and knowledge are not in view and cannot be used.


Your own scriptures go against your earlier statement that logic and math as outlined in wikipedia come from the bible... jesus may have known it, but he sure didn't put it in the bible and share it with us!

So once again we come to the conclusion that the bible speaks of many things, but not of logic and math.

That is not very strong logic. If something is hidden it cannot be revealed?

First of all you didnt bother to figure out who it was hidden from. It never said that it was hidden from everyone.

Second there is nothing to prevent it from being revealed. If something is hidden it can be at any time revealed at the discretion of the hider.

Third you have failed to evaluate the material itself, nor to take time into consideration. Knowledge can be revealed bit by bit over time. Unlimited knowledge can be revealed thusly over an unlimited time period. Therefore an unlimited body of knowledge(such as that which is within Christ) can be both hidden and revealed at the same time, because parts of it can be hidden, and parts of revealed.

If I have wisdom and knowledge hidden within me, it becomes unhidden as soon as I choose to reveal it. God reveals His knowledge to His elect. It is hidden to everyone else.