Nardulus,
logic is abstract- look up the definition of abstract.

Using Websters.......

Logic:

(1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

Abstract:

a: disassociated from any specific instance <an abstract entity> b: difficult to understand : abstruse <abstract problems> c: insufficiently factual :

Faith:

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Not seeing where logic and abstract have much in common.

Ken

I think you hit the point:
That's what Dan's rant is all about, that the christians that he experienced do not separate their and his personal faith from impersonal scientific truth, but that they claim for the bible as the expression of their faith scientific truth.

Spirit,
You state: "And why does our brain works by those rules? Because we can understand nature by those rules. If we had in our brain a different logic, we could not have survived in nature. So the reason for the logic rules in our brain is not the Bible, its just evolution."
It is a significant philosophical problem to have the laws of logic arising from evolution. The law of identity would prohibit any change for example. This would also mean that the laws of logic are contingent or only possible to occur. Also that they may evolve into something else. This is all ridiculous nonsense.
Plus good philosophers have destroyed the expectation of the future to be like the past (See Hume and Russell) on atheistic principles, so the laws of logic might change in the next 5 minutes. This puts no difference between lunacy and logic.

Nardulus,
In the context of our discussion- abstract is 'apart from concrete existence'(Amer.Her.). In other words in a materialist universe how do you have abstract (immaterial) entities?

fastlane69,
The bible doesn't use the word math or logic but it uses the words wisdom and understanding instead. For example Exodus 31:3-5.
Plus you are missing the point (intentionally?). I am telling you the presuppositions necessary for logic and science and math to exist. You keep attacking what nobody is suggesting. I am showing you how God thinks in the bible and how he expects us to think. You can find the law of contradiction used in the bible for example. What do you not understand? Are you trying to impose your standards of evidence onto the bible and if it doesn't use your words and phrases it can't be true? I thought you were trying to apply logic.

Bait and swtich. I see. Spend several posts talking about math and logic in teh bible and then at the end, say "oh, I meant wisdom and understanding instead". I may be an atheist, but at least I'm honest.



I'm not attacking the bible whatsoever. I find it a great read with a great message and a killer ending.

What I am attacking is your definition of logic and your idea that math and logic are presented in the same manner as in wikipedia in the bible. I ask you to define logic in the context of the bible, you offer me "wisdom". I ask you to show me proof of math in the bible, you offer me "understanding". I ask you to clearly STATE what the preconditions are and you give me nothing.



And I have repeatedly shown how this thinking has nothing to do with math and logic. I have conclusively shown that neither math nor logic are even mentioned in the bible... Mercy, forgiveness, morality, love, hate... on these topics the bible speaks and speaks eloquently. But on math and logic the bible is silent.

fastlane69,
If you are asking me to conduct a bible study here, let me recommend that you read some of Gordon Clarks or John Robbins work on logic and the bible. Also J.C.Keister has stuff on Math and the Bible you can read. But the reference I gave you in Exodus should have sufficed with a little inference on your part. Do you think God would have given the Jews the blueprints to build the tabernacle without math? This is my point you are not trying to apply logic to my statements. The only thing you have repeatedly shown is that you are not understanding or not reading my posts.
Let me recommend that you go back and read all of my posts and see if you can piece together answers for you 'objections'.

Neither clark nor robbins nor keister made the statement that....



... but you did. And when I showed that neither term was in the bible and thus not part of the christian worldview, you turn to wisdom and understanding.


You can't keep what you are saying straight... it's as simple as that.

Further evidence of this is that twice you've stated that I should have "infered" from your answers what you mean, which is a sign of an unclear presentation. Furthermore, now you ask me to go back piece together an answer, instead of simply giving me the answer. Even if the answer was already in a previous post, a simple reference to that post would have sufficed. But instead, you dont' make any specific references and simply state "the answer is up there; somewhere. I'm not going to tell you where; you have to piece it together". This again is evidence that you cannot keep you discussion points straight and rely on others to do it for you.


Understanding can only be acheived when people are honest with their words (math/logic vs. wisdom/understanding), are clear about their points(no "inference" needed), and when they give clear answers to clear questions (no "piece it together yourself"). As you lack all these qualities, we will never reach anything approximating understanding.

Thus I leave you with your worldview and your bible and this thread. I'll just satisfy myself with the knowledge that in death, all these questions will be answers.. but not here... not with you.

So enjoy the rest of the forum, ChrisTodd!
Ta!

fastlane69,
Apparently your failure to read and try to understand my posts has degenerated into slander. For example you said:
"Bait and swtich. I see. Spend several posts talking about math and logic in teh bible and then at the end, say "oh, I meant wisdom and understanding instead". I may be an atheist, but at least I'm honest."'
Hardly honest. I clarified your misunderstanding 3 times. Math and logic are contained in wisdom and understanding in the bible. This was a clue for you to research in the bible as you pretended you were interested in doing. You are not reading what I wrote or not understanding what you are reading or are interntionally playing ignorant of the argument I have put forth basically 40 times. Please spend a little time and read my posts more slowly. Also read Clark, Robbins, and Keister (also Greg Bahnsen) with a little more care than you have taken with my posts.
Plus you appear to be hugging a false dilemma that if there isn't a cut and paste wikipedia article in the bible then you have the obligation to suspend all deductive abilities you posess.
The things you continue asking are already posted, I suggest you read my posts.