You still haven't said anything that proves this. Saying someone is wise, doesn't mean they are the 'source of logic'. In fact, it's pretty insane if you look at the fact that Jesus died for others... regardless of social martyrdom where's the logic in all that? If he would use the laws of logic, he would have made sure to stick around a LOT longer, helping all in need of help.

The Bible definitely is no authority on logic and it is indeed funny that you've decided to switch words to 'understanding and wisdom'. From a biological and psychological point of view, the last few sentences I've quoted from you are totally wrong. Laws of logic are universal, there's no need to even have read the Bible to understand logic. There's no dilemma except your odd reasoning here of how knowledge of the Bible would give 'advanced' access to logic or something. Quite ridiculous.



Wikipedia doesn't contain much truth, instead it contains what the majority of people believe to be true. Quite similar to your Bible actually, so I do not see the problem. Especially because Wikipedia is a tad more reliable than the Bible, being written a lot more recent, having access to a lot of sources and so on,

Again sorry for being blunt, but I guess you are ignorant of how the Bible came to be. Look at a Wikipedia kind of book, but instead it's edibility was frozen at some point in time or only possible by religious leaders of great authority/influence,

Cheers

Phoemox,
I think you misunderstand Christianity; "Saying someone is wise, doesn't mean they are the 'source of logic'." Christianity teaches the Jesus Christ is the source of wisdom and understanding (which includes logic and math- please study these words in the bible if you don't understand this concept). But he is the source because he is God not because he was a wise man. Christianity teaches Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
Wisdom (which includes math and logic) is in the nature of God which is why we understand it to be infinite, invarient, universal and not physical. So when you say something like this:
"Laws of logic are universal, there's no need to even have read the Bible to understand logic."
You miss the point. You as a non-Christian cannot rationally account for the laws of logic existing in a contingent physical universe of chance. Nor can you account for how it is that you can use universal immaterial logical laws, when your brain is not universal and is material. This is what you continually ignore.

As a Christian I beg to differ. Christianity teaches nothing of that sort. Jesus Christ being the source of logic and math may be your own private opinion but has nothing to do with Christianity.

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for us. Wisdom, logic, and math are general human achievements. In fact math was developed by the Babylonians long before Jesus was born and before the Bible was written.

Apologetics are fine but posting nonsense in the name of Christianity is not helpful.

Of course I ignore this as it makes no sense whatsoever to me. Tell me how you 'rationally account for' any of those laws. Is it "just because you're a Christian"?

I think I understand the concepts of those laws a lot better than you if you assume, like I said before, that Christianity has some kind of authority in those areas. It certainly has not. As said by Tobias math wasn't invented by Christ nor God, but by mankind. A lot of it was figured out by looking at the stars, understanding patterns, movements and so on all through logic. I don't see what Christianity has got to do with that.

In my framework of things, logic (all kinds of it, as there are many), math and all those other universal laws make perfect sense. Sure, there might be intangible things because of my lack of knowledge and I would even go further and admit that to some extent I'm probably not smart enough to fully understand every concept. However, I really do not see where you're arrogance comes from in saying 'you do not really understand, but Christians do'. Complexity is no indication for something supernatural, instead it's an indication for a lack of knowledge. We can always learn more and something chaos is in perfect order.

I do not want to throw mud, as I like good discussions, but your point is sort of none-existent as it's just an empty claim, sorry.



I think you're misunderstanding... as 1.) Jesus is called 'son of God' many many times throughout the Bible and 2.) Jesus felt betrayed by his 'father' or at least by God.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your words in taking things too literal, but explain how he then is supposed to be the same God. I think describing him as 'angel' would be more appropriate if anything.

Cheers

I think I finally understand where Chris is coming from. Please correct if I am getting it wrong.

Chris feels that God is the creator of everything. The heavens, the planets, the mass and atoms that make up all matter.

Using science and logic man observes these objects and forms laws of physics, and logic, and how everything works. Since God put all this in place we are only observing what God created thus all logic, science and knowlegde are directly related to God.

I think that is the point Chris is trying to make.

So far man has been unable to prove the existance of God, thus we need to have faith, make the leap over the facts and believe or not.

So in my feeable old mind it still comes down to faith. Not logic, not science, just faith.

I need to keep things simple or I get cranky....

Ken

Yep, you definitely seem to be spot on there Nardulus.

But there are many problems with the 'God did it all' explanation, which in itself really isn't an explanation at all if you can't prove it.

I'll admit that I do not and can not know God's motives for whatever he did or did not, if for a moment I would assume he exists or existed in the first place of course.

But in the bigger picture it definitely doesn't make much sense that there's some kind of magical, omnipotent, supernatural something controlling all things behind the curtains.

Cheers

This is partially correct. God though did not create logic and math, rather it reflects his nature - infinite, unchanging, eternal, immaterial. God designed nature intelligently (or with wisdom for you who do not study the bible), and created us in his image with rational minds (wisdom in the inward parts-Job 38:36 for those of you who haven't read the bible) which depend upon him for every thought we think. God says "let us reason together" Isa.1:18 Or as Nardulus said "all logic, science and knowlegde are directly related to God"
The Babylonians did not create math- man simply discovers math. PHeMoX said "A lot of it was figured out by looking at the stars, understanding patterns, movements and so on all through logic.". Of course they discovered much from the creation of the world, the heavens declare the glory of God (Psa.19:1, Rom.1:20) God asked Job a rhetorical question in ch.38:33 regarding the stars "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?" Some people would have us believe that logic and math was created by men and they set the ordinances of heaven. ("He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh")
Jesus Christ most definitely is God in the flesh (Jn.1:1, 1 Tim.3:16) and if you don't believe this you will die in your sins according to Jesus Christ (John 8:23-4).
Man does not prove the existence of God it is clearly evident to everyone so much so they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20 All of their thoughts depend upon God since they require logic and science (uniformity in nature). Mans problem is sin, and this is why they do not like to retain God in their knowledge (Rom.1:28). Yet there is no philosophy that men can invent that is not dependent upon uniformity in nature and logic. Nor is there any philosophy that can account for (make sense of) logic and uniformity in nature, no not one. So as God would say to you infidels "bring forth your strong reasons" (Isa.41:21). Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? It is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. (1 Cor.1:18-31)
Let me exhort all unbelievers to repent of this foolishness and Christ shall give thee light. There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD (Prov.21:30). Quit trying to ignore God's revelation of himself to you at every thought, God knows the things that come into your minds, every one of them. And he will judge the secrets of the world by Jesus Christ according to the gospel.
Christ died for your sins and was buried and rose again the third day and only faith in what he has done will save you (1 Cor.15:1-3).

Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David...

This prophecy about Jesus calls him "The mighty God, The everlasting Father".

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh. It's not taking the Bible too literal to read that just like it stands. Of course, this is a mystery and must be tempered and understood by the Spirit of God. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Who laid down his life for us? This verse says God did.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

God's blood here (Jesus shed his own blood for the sins of the world).

These things are not contradictions, but revelation that Jesus is God. And before someone "jumps my case" about using circular reasoning or "using the Bible doesn't prove anything" let me remind you that Tobias and Phemox have been referencing the Bible in several posts (albeit indirectly), I'm just giving you the chapter and verse for what I'm quoting. Phemox apparently doesn't mind referencing the Bible when it supports what he believes. Interesting how that works.

Yeah, so perhaps he had children? In no way does it change the fact that in the same line he is referred to as 'Prince of peace'. Why not King of Peace? Doesn't Prince imply that he had a father? So he still can't be the same entity as God.



It's neither, although at best they are contradictions.

I'm sure we can discuss all the different interpretations all infinity long and still not agree, but that would be rather pointless.
It's your opinion that the solution for it not to be a contradiction is that it must be someone else. Like God.

Doesn't the Bible state to worship only 1 God by the way? So ... how does Jesus, as your God, fit in this picture?



Whatever..., what's the point of taking part in this discussion when you do not intend to come with actual arguments or even worse claim to have some kind of right to not have to prove anything you say.

Those quotes from the Bible do not prove anything, most of it doesn't really make sense anyways as it gets ripped out of it's context and used in whatever way you see fit. The way I see it, the burden of proof is on you,

Cheers

In that he is God. I only worship one God. (1 John 5:7, Col. 2:8-9, and Gen. 1:26-7 w/ Eph 3:9 among others)