Good for you. I don't like overprotective parents either. Mine totally let me make my own mind about the uncertainties in our world. Even though my mother believes in the christian God and my father was also an active communist in his youth, I didn't learn about any of this until I was over 20 because until then they never ever spoke a word to me about either religion or politics. I was completely free to make up my own mind about these two subjects whereas other children don't have this opportunity to choose for themselves (it's so easy for parents to accidentally brainwash their kids..)

However, I don't like that you described your kid's mulsim friends that try to convert him as "the big bad world". In the same sense, smitty now is also the big bad world for trying to convert all of us (and any young non-christian kids lurking these forums) into christianity.



smitty, enough with the bloody quotes. You know, I was about to finally go buy and read the bible, but now with all these spoilers that you threw in this thread you completely ruined it for me :P The Passion by Mel Gibson was also a major giveaway for me (the jesus dude dies???).

Hmmm, I'm the big bad world for presenting what I believe is the truth? Interesting. So we should only expose people (especially children) to other things and not Christianity? Typical left wing free thinking. Larry, you can still read the bible. I'm certain that like all of us there is plenty there you do not know. Yep, Jesus died, but the great thing is that He is Risen! You can always read the ending (Revelation). That way you can find out what will happen to you in the end.

I was not taught Christianity as a child at home or in school, but I thank God for bringing people into my life who were not ashamed or afraid to tell me about Jesus and the bible. Looking back I suppose I was searching all along and did not realize it at the time. It was not until I was an adult and started reading the bible for myself that I started to believe it instead of the theory of evolution which I had been taught.

No, you didn't understand the point I tried to make.

Btw, please don't categorize me in any left wing-right wing b*llshit..




It was a joke smitty..

Quote: Btw, please don't categorize me in any left wing...
Well, if the shoe fits...

I am right (wing) and proud of it!

Quote: It was a joke smitty..
I know you meant it to be a joke, but you failed miserably.

That's just the american way of thinking. We don't even have the notion of left wing or right wing in my country. No person is exactly the same as the one next to him. Like Chris Rock puts it, there are some things I'm conservative about and there are some things I'm liberal about. If you label yourself one of the only two available choices (apparently) instead of forming your own opinions on things that concern you, to me that sounds like sheep behavior.




I'm sorry that didn't do it for you... How about this one?





Goodnight,
Aris

Btw, Larry, when you say enough with the bloody quotes, do you mean bloody as a cuss word referring to all of God's word or just scriptures relating to the blood of Christ? I know it is all convicting, so you probably mean it as a cuss word in regards to all of scripture. It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not believe the bible seem to be so afraid of it, because it just may convince them or someone else that it is true. I don't fly off the handle when people post about the theory of evolution. I just want equal time for Creationism.

that was an expression, which i probably should've put in quotes myself. my mum uses it a lot and i assumed it was fairly common, but perhaps not. "stepping out into the big bad world" describes the point when one is suddenly completely independent of one's parents/caretakers. i intended "the big bad world" as the context in which a young adult might get their very first taste of Islam if they are too sheltered.

i didn't realise your parents' varied backgrounds! and i'm glad while we can disagree on religious issues we can agree on issues of life-application, ie: parenting .

julz

That's right, I am one of His sheep, and eternally grateful to Him for that!
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

AlbertoT



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

"Galileo was eventually forced to recant his heliocentrism and spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the Roman Inquisition."

In terms of the Inquisition, your right, this hardly sounds like persecution. It's not like they pulled his fingernails out or anything. (sarcasm)

For Smitty, thanks, I will look up those links you pointed to. I would also advise you not to quote so much scripture in your posts. There's nothing wrong with it, and I'm sure your intentions are good. However, since the subject here is a scientific one, and since science uses the language of logic and reason, it might be more helpful to approach your perspective from that angle too. Scripture will be very useful when determining what your beliefs are, but take an example from Paul. He didn't just quote scripture, he used his wits and argued his point with reason and logic too. My point is that an atheist will be more likely to see your point through a reasoned argument, rather than through a direct quote from the Bible. Since he has already decided not to believe in the Bible, it will have very little effect on him.

Back to the topic...

I think there's an important idea that's missing from this conversation. While I'm no scientist, I do try to approach knowledge somewhat methodicaly. I really think knowledge begins with admitting that I don't know. How can I learn, if I already think I know it. I see both sides of this debate making this mistake. Science is supposed to always leave room for new ideas, but with regard to the Intelligent Design argument, it seems that many of the most prominent scientists have really closed the door on even discussing it. They seem to be as fundamentalist about darwinism as any Christian or Muslim is about religion. There's a documentary about this phenomenon called "Expelled: no Intelligence Allowed", I would recommend it to anyone interested in this debate.

The Creationist side also tends to completely ignore the other sides arguments, and instead fixates on a very literal translation and interpretation of scripture. This is particularly un-helpful when the scripture in question is the Bible. No disrespect to the Bible is intended here, but it has a lot of contradictory material in it. For the record. I happen to believe in a lot of what the Bible teaches about God and the prophets, and morality in general.

Furthermore there's an important aspect of this debate which is not being brought up. There's a big difference between the concept of 'Creationism' which has a top-down approach to science, based on Biblical teachings, and the concept of 'Intelligent Design', which many scientists actually argue is becoming apparent through the study of nature. Of course strict Darwinists will tell you that these scientists are merely 'Creationists' in disguise, I must disagree. If scientists are supposed to be agnostic, as one poster had mentioned previously, they must admit that they don't know whether there's a designer or not. Therefore concluding that there is a designer, could be just as scientific as concluding that there isn't. An Agnostic is someone who believes that metaphysical realities can neither be proven nor disproven.

Huston Smith once wrote about this, explaining that science is the study of observable phenomenon, so it really has no bearing on religious beliefs. God, angels, devils, etc... are by definition things which are unseen, and not part of the observable universe. Therefore it is unscientific to try to come to conclusions about them through science.

At the same time, as a Muslim, I believe God (Allah) placed signs of His existance throughout creation. Therefor the study of science, without bias, should lead to the truth. I also think that a scientific mindset can help us determine whether a particular religious scripture is true or false. Since scripture is part of the observable universe, it is to some degree subject to scrutiny by science.


Again, I hope this helps...