Is it? Sometimes life seems that way

Okay, I agreed with this when I was an agnostic, and I think it's a much more honest position than straight out denial of God. However, I came to the conclusion that while it is impossible to claim that there is no God, it is actually possible for someone to claim that there is a God. Let me explain.

Let's assume for the sake of argument tht there is a God. All powerful etc... He would be able to hide His presence, or He could choose to reveal it. If God chose to reveal His presence to someone, that someone would be a fool -NOT- to claim that there was a God. Now I'm not saying that I'm such a person, I've arrived at my belief through more mundane means. But this is the entire concept of prophethood in a nutshell. This explains why the prophets were so darn stubborn, assuming again that the history about them is accurate.

At the same time, while I don't think God will reveal His presence to just anyone, in the same way that He revealed it to, say... Moses, But I do think He reveals Himself to everyone in some lesser way. The more we respond to this, the more He reveals. This is one reason I don't think it's at all illogical to believe in a God, and why I maintain that Intelligent Design is a valid theory, worthy of our school system's acknowledgement.




I would ask that... yes. To me this part of your argument really supports the intelligent design side. If it's not random, then it must be laws that control the universe. If it's laws, then who wrote them? Why are they consistent throughout the known universe? What is causing them to remain intact over centuries and eons? I can really understand why some people don't believe in God, I didn't for a long time. But I can't understand how anyone could claim that there is definitely no God. It's really illogical. We're so small in comparison to the whole universe. Our sphere of knowledge is so tiny, the more we learn, the more we realise that we don't know. I'm repeating myself, but I really think atheists are either lying to us, or lying to themselves.

Mind you a lot of religious people also seem to be lying to themselves too. They clearly haven't thought any of this through, and they rely on blind faith. I've encountered them from many faiths, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc... I'm not saying they're bad people. Just that they are not thinkers.

Then there are those who take religion, or some philosophy, and use it to justify whatever thay want to do. Those people are bad, or severely misguided. Whether they're Christians, Muslims, Darwinists or Flying Spaghetti Monster worshippers...

HyperGraph, thanks for responding. I'm giving a counter-argument, not so much for you, but for other readers of this thread. I kind of wish someone with a little more enthusiasm had responded to my post...



It is commonly held, but I think it's much more than a stretch, as both geneologies mention Joseph by name, and neither mention Mary. Either way, there is an error in the text. i.e. the geneologies contradict each other, or one of them fails to mention that it is the geneology of Mary, and refers to her as Joseph.

It's much, much more probable that the text was written by fallable men (however well intentioned) than by an infallable God.



Agreed, and I wouldn't expect more from any historical document. But when the claim is made that the document in question is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I find it surprising to find 'different mindsets' involved at all.

Again the point of this was to explain why 'Creationism' was probably not good to teach in a science class, as the Bible is not really a scientifically accurate book. However, as book of moral guidance, it's stature is much higher, and I don't think it should be ignored all together. As a believer, I think God gave us minds to discriminate between what is true and what is false.

Moral guidance? Does this include genocide? How 'bout those laws on slavery? And those that say women are worth less than men? What 'bout stoning a child for not obeying a parent? If I lived by these morals the local government would have my @ss!

If you haven't read my previous posts, I will explain again. I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim. It is exactly because of those things you mentioned (i.e. Genocide, Slavery, and unfair treatment of women), as well as the contradictions in the Bible which caused me to reject it's teachings overall. However, when I said it should not be ignored altogether, I meant it. It has some important truths in it, which for Christian society, should not be ignored.

If god created the universe, and everything that will happen is determinated by laws of nature if god DOESN'T influence in the universe, all influence by god would mean that god changed his opinion because he could have made the beginning state and the natural laws just as he want, because he is allmighty, but if god is perfect, he won't change his opinion, because there can only be ONE perfect opinion and one of the two opinions would be wrong. That means 1. God doesn't exist OR 2. God does not influence in the universe OR 3. God is not perfect. Each case would mean that there is no reason to pray to god.

I'm not sure if I understand your argument. Let me explain what I understood, and you can confirm if I've got it right. Then I will try to respond to it, acknowledging the while that we are way off topic. Here goes:

If we assume that God created the laws of nature, then we would assume that they are perfect. Your question is 'why would God, later, choose to change those laws as He sees fit, by influencing history, performing miracles etc...? This would imply that His laws were not perfect to begin with, and would serve to disprove His existence'

Is that what you meant?

This might help this thread:

similarly that

God does exist. God is sovereign. God is perfect. God wants us to pray to Him.