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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Tiles] #240850
12/12/08 22:18
12/12/08 22:18
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smitty Offline
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Those who do not fear God have no knowledge of Him.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 2:5
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240852
12/12/08 22:22
12/12/08 22:22
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Lukas Offline

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The bible is no scientific source and bible quotes don't have any scientify relevance.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #240854
12/12/08 22:32
12/12/08 22:32
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smitty Offline
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Sadly, one day you will find out you are wrong. frown

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #240855
12/12/08 22:35
12/12/08 22:35
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lukas
...there are many theories about that (the origin of life). We just don't know yet which exactly is the right. But what we know is that is DID happen by chance!


If you admit that you don't know how something happened, then it's really unscientific to rule out some possibilities, like an Intelligent Designer.

Originally Posted By: Lukas
Originally Posted By: Dooley
"and since all of these things seem to follow an orderly, intelligent system, ..."

Does it?


Yes it does. Let me give some examples:
1. Cell reproduction. Cells can reproduce themselves with remarkable accuracy. This is not random, it is an amazingly complex system, which occurs throughout every species of animal, plant, fungus etc... Try making a candy bar that reproduces itself... I think a team of the world's best scientists, with all the funding in the world will not be able to do this... ever, nor will they be able to explain it in terms of chance. There are too many laws involved which govern the universe to explain them away as chance.

2. Forces. The forces of Gravity, magnatism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces all behave consistently throughout the known universe. It binds matter together, and keeps planets in orbit around stars, and moons around planets. All this serves to maitain a secure environment in which life, as mentioned above, can grow and evolve. If chance were the governing force in the universe, we would not be able to rely on the sunrise in the morning, or the cycle of the moon. The underlying order allows us to predict these events accurately, this implies design, not chance.

3. Time. Time flows in one direction, at least our perception of it is limited to one. It's always ticking away in one direction. No chance involved here. If it were chance thaen every day would be a crap-shoot. I might wake up three weeks ago, or 100 years in the future. Time is consistent, predictable and orderly. Another evidence of design, not chance.

4. Morality. This is connected with something AlbertoT wrote.

Originally Posted By: AlbertoT

A female camel refused to have sex with two male camels, because she had to take care of her kid
No problem
One male camel engaged the female camel while the other one kicked her baby to death
Should I assume that such behavior has been planned on purpose , by a God of love?


So you're saying that you have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong? You can judge for yourself whether the actions of these camels was 'good' or 'evil'? Where did this sense of morality come from, on the backs of crystals? Again, religions teach that God gave us the choice to do good or to do evil, it's up to us. Blaming God for the actions of these camels is hardly a valid argument against His existence. i happen to believe that animals have been given choice as well, not just humans. They are a bit more limited in what they are capable of, but it's still right and wrong, and they still will bear it's consequences.

5. Death. Death will overtake all of us, and it remains a huge hole in any scientific analysis of the universe. We simply cannot claim to understand what happens to our consciousness after we die. Any attempt to do so (without divine intervention) would be foolish. We each face this unknown and we each will be taking our choices with us. This is enough for me to reject any false claims that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted By: Lukas

It's not unscientific to ignore insane claims by unknown people. If I wrote a book with ridiculous claims that I met some superior being it wouldn't be considered unscientific if scientists ignore it! And don't call it "available data"! It's no data. It's ridiculous claims.

Any you fully ignored my actual message: If god can't be proven or disproven, it means that he doesn't influence in the world!


And who will decide who's claims are ridiculous? Who appointed these judges? Everyone with a mind has ultimately to decide for themselves which claims are ridiculous and which are not.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240860
12/12/08 23:00
12/12/08 23:00
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smitty Offline
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very well said, Dooley! Excellent! smile

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240862
12/12/08 23:02
12/12/08 23:02
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Lukas Offline

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To 1.: Cells reproducing themselves DID happen by chance! Earth origined billions of years ago. The cells had time to origin by chance.
Btw. cells don't reproduce themselves with THAT accuracy. They envolve. If The new cell can reproduce itself better than the old one, it survived, while the old one may die out.

To 2.: This is explained by this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

To 3.: dito

To 4.: Morality is made by humans. There does not exist a consistent definition of moratlity. Animals do not have morality. It makes sense for evolution and selection that some animals are killing each other. The strongest survives and shares its genetic material.

But as far as I understood the religious point of view, a consitent moraltity exists: the moraltity of god. (although humans can decide themselves) If god creates animals that are killing each other, he of course can be blamed by that!

5.: Death in science means just that you don't live anymore. That's it. In science there is no afterlife. So don't waste your life for an afterlife that likely does net even exist. wink

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240863
12/12/08 23:03
12/12/08 23:03
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Lukas Offline

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Originally Posted By: smitty
very well said, Dooley! Excellent! smile

smitty and Dooley, are you the same person? laugh

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #240864
12/12/08 23:20
12/12/08 23:20
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smitty Offline
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I wish I was as intelligent as Dooley! smile

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240865
12/12/08 23:21
12/12/08 23:21
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Quote:

So you're saying that you have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong?



What's coscience then ?
I have been taught that it is :

" an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong "

In the Bible is written somewhere that human being have been created much alike God

Since I dont suppose that even the most fanatic fundamentalist assume that God has a beard and a couple of hands and legs than the similiarity must be something spiritual related

I felt sorry for the poor camel mummy and I dont think to be the only one
I would never dream to design such a cruel world

If the God's sense of good and evil has nothing to do with ours , how can he expect that we behave well ?

Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/12/08 23:23.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240872
12/13/08 00:49
12/13/08 00:49
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JibbSmart Offline
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Quote:
And i have answered that i do, that i know better what i know than you. Wrong answer? Seems so ...
i never said (or even implied) that i know what you know better than you do. all i said is that you saying "grew up catholic" doesn't actually tell me anything about your knowledge. other things you've said since then have. so my answer was not wrong.

heaven and hell can easily be black and white, because the requirement for salvation is black and white; there's no half-way:

saved: either never sinned in your entire life (no one), or accepted Jesus as your Saviour (there's no half-way; there's no "i'll say i believe in God just in case", coz God knows our heart).

unsaved: everything else.

there is very clearly no in-between.

Quote:
Point is, i will not go to your house, ring you out of your bed, and try to convince you from my point of view. I don't mind what you believe.
neither do we. some Christians might (usually Jehovah's witnesses, who believe there's limited room in Heaven, i think). all we're doing is talking about our point of view in a discussion about our point of view. secondly, you already said that you do care in response to one of my posts a little while ago. now you're changing your story.
Quote:
And i live much comfortabler without the chains of an ancient faith.
maybe more comfortable without Catholic pressures, but atheism brings chains of self-preservation, uncertainty in death, and finiteness. Christianity will free you from those chains, without those Catholic chains.

@Dooley: we don't often have Muslims in these discussions, and it is good to be able to be in the same discussion as you. we both have similar logical arguments: the Russian Roulette argument, and your response to Lukas' argument is similar to mine, neither of which Lukas shows any indication he's actually read.

@Lukas: "So you cannot disprove what I said. And what I said disproves the existence of god!" look again, Lukas. God never changed His opinion. look back because i'm not going to repeat everything Dooley, Smitty and i said about that.

you don't have to be an atheist to be logical.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
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