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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240960
12/13/08 17:09
12/13/08 17:09
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smitty Offline
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smitty  Offline
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There are 7 dispensations in the bible:

Innocence
Human Conscience
Human Government
Promise
Law
Grace
Kingdom

Human Conscience began when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

For those of you who may not know, dispensation means household economy. It is how God deals with man in different times in human history. But man is always saved by God's grace through man's faith in believing God's word.


Dooley, I forgot to address your remark about the book of James. James wrote how saving faith should produce good works, not how we are saved by our works. Martin Luther did not understand the book of James either.

Last edited by smitty; 12/13/08 17:25.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240962
12/13/08 17:18
12/13/08 17:18
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A
AlbertoT Offline
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Quote:

1. Allow no evil at all - this would be a pointless universe. We would all be robots, and would have no free-will.


Animals do not have free wiil
God has created evil , not simply allowed it

Quote:

2. Destroy Evil right away, or before it is allowed to Manifest - This would go directly against the concept of Mercy.



Sarcasm is also a bad habit of mine
This explanation reminds me that guy who used to wear tight shoes
" For the pleasure to take them off, at home " he said


Quote:

4. On the other side, if He was an Evil God, He could have made it much worse.


Well let's say He could have done something better
Again low level sarcasm .

Quote:

I'm glad you're asking the questions you've asked, it means at least you're thinking about it. I'm not claiming to have all the answers either, this is just how I see things.


I appreciate
No sarcasm

Quote:

Even if you can imagine life coming about randomly, and things evolving randomly (which I cannot) I think it's a real stretch to think that higher concepts like love, morality, truth came about by random coincidence.


Nobody can figure out things evolving randomly but science is not alwayes intuitive
Our intuition can be deceiving
Can you really imagine that "time and space"are not a absolute items ?

You dont need religion to explain love a morality

I have already proposed a couple of times to make the following computer simulations

You get started from a population made of

1\3 selfish poeple : they dont help nobody even the ones who helped them
1\3 generous people : they help everybody even the ones who refused to help them
1\3 normal people : they help everybody except the ones who refused to help them

I skip the details but you got it

You run the simulation

After some generatios the populations is made of

90 % normal people
5 % generous people
5 % selfish people

The selfish people, by the way, are a minority but they own most of the available resources smile

Nothing new under the sun

Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/13/08 17:24.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240963
12/13/08 17:19
12/13/08 17:19
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Posts: 8,177
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PHeMoX Offline
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Perhaps, but Martin Luther more than likely wasn't mainly interested in religion itself, he was more interested in social change. To be honest, I don't think he really cared all that much about how he interpreted the texts.

Quote:
Comeon. Again quoting nonsense instead answering a single argument is not a very valid method to discuss.

Constantly repeating lies doesn't make them more valid or true.


Yeah, posting bible quotes over and over again really is futile.

Quote:
God has created evil , not simply allowed it


Yeah, in fact, if you stretch that belief a bit when it comes to the bigger picture, I'm sure God doesn't care about humans as it's only an incredibly small fraction of "his creation".

Yet another reason why the concept of God doesn't make sense, why would he care? The whole 'we humans are special' argument fails hard in my opinion,

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: AlbertoT] #240966
12/13/08 17:32
12/13/08 17:32
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smitty Offline
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God did not create evil. Man chose to disobey God (sin) and continues to do so. That is where evil comes from. Could God have prevented it? Yes, but God gave man free will. Man has free will to choose good or evil. You all are so intelligent, but overlook the fact that God is the One who created everything. Some things are too complex for our finite minds, that is why God made salvation so simple and easy that even a child can understand it. It is a free gift. All one has to do is accept it.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: PHeMoX] #240967
12/13/08 17:35
12/13/08 17:35
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smitty Offline
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God cares about man because He created us to love and worship Him. We are His only creation that has a soul because He breathed the breath of life into us.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240970
12/13/08 17:43
12/13/08 17:43
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Tiles Offline
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Quote:
good or evil


As told, the whole concept is wrong. There is not just good or evil.


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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240971
12/13/08 17:48
12/13/08 17:48
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PHeMoX Offline
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Originally Posted By: smitty
God did not create evil. Man chose to disobey God (sin) and continues to do so. That is where evil comes from.


How can you even say such a thing? Nature can be very cruel and quite evil, don't tell me you believe mankind is to blame for natural carnivore violence, the impact of hazardous conditions on our planet and what more.

We're only to blame for cruelty that is caused by us, but Tiles is right, the concept is wrong.

Quote:
You all are so intelligent, but overlook the fact that God is the One who created everything. Some things are too complex for our finite minds


The amount of complexity of something means nothing when it comes to who made what or even if it was made. Humans are able to make very advanced technological devices, automobiles, airplanes, computers that are incredibly complex, complex structures and much more, yet all of that wasn't made by God...

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #240985
12/13/08 19:53
12/13/08 19:53
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: smitty

Dooley, I forgot to address your remark about the book of James. James wrote how saving faith should produce good works, not how we are saved by our works. Martin Luther did not understand the book of James either.


I didn't say that we are saved by our works. Just what James said, faith without works is no faith at all, just as works without faith will not do us any good. It's God's mercy which does away with our sins.

In Islam, God's mercy manifests itself in the form of God sending us guidance. He sent Prophets and Books with which we can learn how to believe and behave properly. This is our expression of faith, which will serve to ensure that God forgives our sins. No you can't force God to forgive you, it's up to Him, but the fact that you care and are asking for His forgiveness is an indication that His mercy has already reached you. Otherwise you might be an atheist or idol worshipper etc...

He showed you mercy by opening your heart to His message. Now it's up to you to act on that message, which you will if you really believe in it. I'm surprised Christians have a hard time with this, it's all over the Bible. According to the Bible Jesus said:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 5:19)

This is Islam in a nutshell. Thanks Jesus smile

Last edited by Dooley; 12/13/08 20:36.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: AlbertoT] #240987
12/13/08 20:12
12/13/08 20:12
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlbertoT

Animals do not have free wiil
God has created evil , not simply allowed it


How do you know, have you been inside the mind of a dog? A lot of evidence points to the fact that animals can learn behavior. It seems like you're using a Christian viewpoint to support your atheistic argument. If it's evolution, then animals should have every bit of free will that we do, or perhaps slightly less, or more free will.

By the way, I've never read anything in Christian or Islamic literature which states that animals don't have free will. Maybe I missed it, but I believe they do, to a lesser extent than humans of course. They seem to be more bound by instinct than we are, but it's a matter of degree, not black and white.

Originally Posted By: AlbertoT

I have already proposed a couple of times to make the following computer simulations


The computer simulation idea proves nothing to me. In order to write a computer simulation, you need a computer, something which was designed by an intelligent entity. You also need the intelligent entity to write the program. These arguments support intelligent design more than a random evolution.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: PHeMoX] #240990
12/13/08 20:26
12/13/08 20:26
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: PHeMoX


The amount of complexity of something means nothing when it comes to who made what or even if it was made. Humans are able to make very advanced technological devices, automobiles, airplanes, computers that are incredibly complex, complex structures and much more, yet all of that wasn't made by God...

Cheers


Again, you have to look at the initial cause. Yes humans can invent complex things, but not nearly as complex as the things already in nature. Plus, how did they get the physical ability (i.e. hands)to invent these things? How did they get the raw materials to do their inventing? How did they get a mind with which to solve all the problems which arise when inventing something? All these things are provided for us, yet we take them for granted.

The single celled organism, which evolutionsist believe just popped into existence, is so much more complex than anything humans have ever made, it's irrational to think that it could happen by chance. As I've said, it's like discovering a Boeing 747 in the jungle, and assuming that it just pieced itself together over time.

Another analogy: If you were walking along the beach, and you saw 20 shells organized in a square on the sand, would you think that it happened randomly? What if you saw twenty more squares, each made of 20 shells, set in a pattern? Whould you sit there and try to figure out how they randomly appeared there? I think any thinking person would assume that they were placed there by an intelligent entity (i.e. a person). Answer this question, please. I want to know if you would really assume that the squares are a random occurrance.

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