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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240991
12/13/08 20:28
12/13/08 20:28
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Lukas Offline

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Free will is an illusion anyway. Your brain is controled by natural laws just as everything in the universe!

Originally Posted By: Dooley
The computer simulation idea proves nothing to me. In order to write a computer simulation, you need a computer, something which was designed by an intelligent entity. You also need the intelligent entity to write the program. These arguments support intelligent design more than a random evolution.

Rubbish! What a computer simulation does, can also be calculated by humans, just slower. And a computer isn't made by a god, it's made by a "failable" human.

EDIT:
Quote:
Some things are too complex for our finite minds, that is why God made salvation so simple and easy that even a child can understand it.

This claim is very dangerous. It says: "Don't think for yourself! It's too complex for you! Let a 'god' think for you!" This is one of the reasons why the church got so much power in the middle ages.

Last edited by Lukas; 12/13/08 20:32.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #240993
12/13/08 20:38
12/13/08 20:38
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lukas

Rubbish! What a computer simulation does, can also be calculated by humans, just slower. And a computer isn't made by a god, it's made by a "failable" human.


Yeah, it's made by an intelligent entity (a human). Your argument implies that the computer pieced itself together randomly out of jungle mud!

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #240997
12/13/08 20:47
12/13/08 20:47
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Lukas Offline

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But our brain did. The only reason why a computer didn't envolve by chance is that it can't reproduce itself. Only things that can reproduce theirselves can envolve.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241011
12/13/08 22:18
12/13/08 22:18
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lukas
But our brain did. The only reason why a computer didn't envolve by chance is that it can't reproduce itself. Only things that can reproduce theirselves can envolve.


Said as if reproduction were the simplest thing in the world. (more sarcasm) Oh if that's all it is, I'll just install the reproduction chip into my computer, and it can evolve too.

This is exactly where God's influence is most obvious. Even if all the scientists in the world got together (right now) they would not be able to invent a computer that could reproduce itself. This is why a living cell that's able to do so (reproduce itself) is seen as a miracle, and why it is the main focus of the Intelligent Design Theory.

Even if they did eventualy design some nano-computer that could reproduce itself, it still supports intelligent design, because those scientists are not dummies. Years of research and experimentation would be required to invent such a thing (if it's even possible, which I doubt), and the same sientists would laugh at the idea that it could happen randomly. However, that's exactly what a cell is, it's a tiny computer, with the ability to absorb and manufacture chemicals, and reproduce itself. It contains roughly a gigabyte of information in it's DNA, which tells it exactly what kind of proteins to manufacture, and in what quantities etc...

I don't think you have studied the living cell in any depth. See the following website http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/13-cells.htm
It's the first thing that popped up when I typed 'the cell' into Google, after the Jennifer Lopez movie. It is not a religious website, just conveying facts about the cell.

The idea that such a complex and well organized structure came out of some primordeal swamp, with the ability to reproduce itself is ludicris. It's like dumping a bunch of silicon and wires in a bucket, and swishing them around, adding a bit of electricity, and expecting to get a new motherboard...

Try writing a computer program with random key entry. See how long it will take to arrive at Crysis. This is what you are telling me you believe is possible.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241014
12/13/08 22:29
12/13/08 22:29
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Either I did not explain my self or you did not grasp the meaning of the computer simulation which I proposed in my previous post
Useless to say that it does not come out of my head

Many people assume that the " struggle of life " must lead to aggressive and selfish behaviours only
However in the world there are also love and generosity which should not be compatible , they claim, with evolution

This is absolutely false

A super aggressive and \ or a super selfish member of a comunity may be dangerous for the whole comunity , thus the other members tend to push him out
On the other hand a super generous guy is dangerous for his own survival

For this reason a stable comunity is a mix of love and hate , of generosity and selfishness, of good and evil

These behaviours are nothing else than the results of the evolution
Nothing to do with religion or the supposed free will


Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/13/08 22:54.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #241017
12/13/08 22:35
12/13/08 22:35
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Lukas Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dooley
Said as if reproduction were the simplest thing in the world. (more sarcasm) Oh if that's all it is, I'll just install the reproduction chip into my computer, and it can evolve too.

This is exactly where God's influence is most obvious. Even if all the scientists in the world got together (right now) they would not be able to invent a computer that could reproduce itself. This is why a living cell that's able to do so (reproduce itself) is seen as a miracle, and why it is the main focus of the Intelligent Design Theory.

This does NOT support Intelligent Design! You say that a reproducing computer can NOT be created be intelligent beings!
But if you throw 1000 dices often enough, you once WILL get 1000 sixes wink

Quote:
I don't think you have studied the living cell in any depth. See the following website http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/13-cells.htm
It's the first thing that popped up when I typed 'the cell' into Google, after the Jennifer Lopez movie. It is not a religious website, just conveying facts about the cell.

We still get taught the thruth in biology lessons. I already knew most of what the site says.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #241020
12/13/08 22:52
12/13/08 22:52
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Quote:

How do you know, have you been inside the mind of a dog? A lot of evidence points to the fact that animals can learn behavior. It seems like you're using a Christian viewpoint to support your atheistic argument.


I have no doubt that animals have also feelings
Everybody has seen on television the commotion of the gorilla mother holding her dead kid in her hands
I am pretty sure that the female camel was in despair watching her kid being kicked to death
This is one of the reasons why I refused to believe that this world has been created by a God of love
This is one of the reason why , frankly speaking, I think that many religious guys ( not all of course ) are heartless people

Am I using the christian viewpoints ?
of course I am
Have you have ever heard that kind of demostration called " reductio ad absurdum" ?

You get started from some assumptions then you demostrate that they lead to absurd conclusions thus also the initial assumptions are false

You have never heard a Christian or a muslin claiming that animals dont have free will ?

Do you realize that this is one of the strongest prove in favour of evolutionism ?

Christians assume that human beings are something special and not just an evoluted monkey




Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/13/08 23:04.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: AlbertoT] #241028
12/13/08 23:53
12/13/08 23:53
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Dooley Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
Either I did not explain my self or you did not grasp the meaning of the computer simulation which I proposed in my previous post


That may be it, or perhaps I didn't read the original post about this. It makes more sense when you put it that way, but it is hardly an argument against intelligent design. It does work as an argument in defense of evolution though. (slight difference)

Originally Posted By: Lukas

But if you throw 1000 dices often enough, you once WILL get 1000 sixes wink


Never, it's statistically impossible. It is theoretically possible, but so unlikely, that an intelligent designer is much more probable. Plus, who made the dice? Who is rolling them? For your genetic game of roulette to occur, you need the laws of physics and chemistry to be in place. It is hardly a random occurence at all. The whole set-up has to be there from the beginning, and this is even harder for me to believe than the randomly generated cell idea.

It's like someone opening a store, and advertising it in the newspaper, and giving his 100th customer a prize. Yes the guy was chosen randomly, but it's within a plan that he was chosen.

Plans do not occur randomly, nor do laws, they are designed.

Originally Posted By: AlbertoT

You have never heard a Christian or a muslin claiming that animals dont have free will ?


I have, but I've never seen scriptural evidence for this claim. Islam actually has evidence to the contrary. If you're interested, I could find it and post a reference.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #241031
12/14/08 00:23
12/14/08 00:23
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Lukas Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dooley
Originally Posted By: Lukas

But if you throw 1000 dices often enough, you once WILL get 1000 sixes wink


Never, it's statistically impossible. It is theoretically possible, but so unlikely, that an intelligent designer is much more probable. Plus, who made the dice? Who is rolling them? For your genetic game of roulette to occur, you need the laws of physics and chemistry to be in place. It is hardly a random occurence at all. The whole set-up has to be there from the beginning, and this is even harder for me to believe than the randomly generated cell idea.

There was a big chaos after the earth origined. So the dices were thrown millions of times. If this is still too hard to believe for you, let's think about this: The universe is huge. It might be even infinite. So if the universe is infinite, there is an infinite number of planets where live is possible, the chance that cells do NOT origin by chance would be INFINITESIMAL! But even if it's limited to the Hubble volume (14 billions light years), there would be enough plantes that the chance that cells origin on at least one of them is very, very high!
The probability of an intelligent designer is higher? Haha! Who created god by the way? Did he just happen by chance?

Btw. the Hubble volume also proves that creationism is wrong. Its radius is 14 billions light years. If the world was created by god 6000 years ago, it would be just 6000 light years! But I think that has already been mentioned in this thread, but ignored by you, the creationists.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: PHeMoX] #241037
12/14/08 01:09
12/14/08 01:09
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smitty Offline
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Quote:
How can you even say such a thing? Nature can be very cruel and quite evil, don't tell me you believe mankind is to blame for natural carnivore violence, the impact of hazardous conditions on our planet and what more.


Man is responsible for the the impact of hazardous conditions on our planet such as pollution, but God is sovereign and in control of all things. He does allow evil, calamaties, catastrophes and whatever is necessary so that we will realize that He is all powerful, that we need Him, and that we are spiritually lost without Him.

Quote:
The amount of complexity of something means nothing when it comes to who made what or even if it was made. Humans are able to make very advanced technological devices, automobiles, airplanes, computers that are incredibly complex, complex structures and much more, yet all of that wasn't made by God...


It is God who enables man to invent, but man cannot create. Only God can create.

Last edited by smitty; 12/14/08 01:20.
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