smitty and Dooley, could you please comment on the Hubble volume thing?

Lukas, you haven't been reading my posts. This last post of yours is proof. I've said all along that I'm a Muslim, I don't accept the literal interpretation of the Bible, as Smitty does. (don't worry, I'm not angry about it... just pay attention).

The Quran does not place such specific time limits on Creation. It says that a day with Allah (God) is as 1,000 years of your reckoning. It mentions that the the angels ascend to God in a day whcih is as 50,000 years of your reckoning. The point is that the word 'day' in Arabic does not simply mean 1 24 hour period. It can be used for that, but it can be used for any period of time, of whatever length. So while the Quran does mention that Allah (God) created the heavens and the Earth in six days (periods), it does not indicate the length of these days (periods).

The Quran also, does not attempt to give a day by day report on what happened since the beginning of creation. The Quran is not a chronological book. The Bible is written (more or less) chronologically. Chronology (time) is a human limitation, something which Allah (God) would not be effected by. So as a result, Muslims do not have to argue that the universe is only 6000 years old as do Christians (who interprete the Bible literaly). I'm perfectly happy with a much older universe.

This is why I've been advocating the theory of Intelligent Design not Creationism. Because it follows Islamic principals of scientific inquiry much more closely than the Creationist's literal interpretation of the Bible.

The Quran is not silent on the matter of the origin of the universe though. It gives statements which are remarkably similar to modern theories of the origin of the cosmos, like the big bang.

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" (Quran 21:30)

The heavens and the earth were all together, and God seperated them. How would an Arab merchant in the 6th century know this? There are many such statements in the Quran which have left scientists baffled as to how it was written so long ago, when theories on the origin of the universe were pretty unscientific. Also, if you consider the Quran's statement about all life coming from water, it actually is supported by the theory of evolution.

After arguing with Christians so long, I can hardly blame you for assuming that people who believe in God are not logical or scientific at all. However the Quran is not the same as the Bible, and it never contradicts what we can observe in nature. Therefore Muslims have a much better relationship with the sciences than Christians ever did. Remember the European Renaissance occurred because of interactions with Muslim society, who had translated Greek texts (which had been prohibited by the Catholic Church) and re-introduced the sciences into European languages. Muslims also made many contributions to these sciences. The Quran encourages observation of nature, and history. All of these things can bring us a better understanding of God's creation. We are never told to close our eyes to reality, and just believe in a book.

"Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day there are indeed Signs for men of understanding. Those who celebrate the praises of Allah standing sitting and lying down on their sides and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth (with the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught hast thou created (all) this! Glory to thee! give us salvation from the penalty of the fire."(Quran 3:190-191)

oh dear... are people still calling "young earth creationism" "creationism"?

it's just like calling "peanut butter ice-cream" ice-cream, which is perfectly correct, except that if peanut butter ice-cream is disgusting, it doesn't mean ice-cream is disgusting. remember that Dooley is Muslim -- do you think Dooley believes in a world-age estimated based on the Jewish-Christian Bible?

the Bible doesn't teach an age for the world. some people tried to calculate the age of the world using the Bible, but it wasn't written with the world's age in mind.

the idea that one can calculate the world's age by looking at the Bible is quite fanciful and pretty cool, hence its popularity, but just because that concept is wrong doesn't make the Bible, or Creationism, wrong -- Creationism in general being that something of some intelligence created the world and the universe; and as far as Smitty, Dooley and i are concerned it's the concept that the one and only all-powerful God created it all.

even from a scientist's point of view this hypothesis is without flaw, and just because it's untestable doesn't mean it's not true.

and just because it's untestable in this life, doesn't mean it's not a concern. doesn't mean that if it's true you won't regret rejecting God after you die.

no one wants to deal with the idea that you're playing Russian Roulette by holding onto atheism? science is inherently agnostic, i would've thought.

and before someone says "well even if we choose to believe in God, do we want Islam or Christianity or what? what will save us? why even bother?" consider if you were in a room starving, and you can see down several paths in front of you, some or one of which may lead you to safety. will you just sit there and starve to death, in defiance of how many options are in front of you? or will you explore them?

julz

Ok, I need to quote some scripture here to make my point. What James is saying is that if someone is saved, then his faith is going to produce works that show that he is saved. He is saying that salvation is a result of believing God's word, and then salvation produces good works and obedience to God's word. In other words, anyone can say he is saved, but if you say you are saved (have faith) and you do not produce good works, then your faith is dead. Faith and works go together because faith produces works. Not that the works save us, but our salvation should manifest good works. James also says that it is not good enough to believe that God exists. He says even the demons believe that God exists and they shudder. We have to believe God's word and act upon it. Believing God's word is what makes us righteous, not our works. Abraham believed what God said and God credited to him as righteousness, then Abraham acted upon his faith and obeyed God (works) by being willing to sacrifice Isaac (yes Isaac, not Ishmael). In the same way, Rahab the harlot believed God and obeyed Him. They were both saved by God's grace and their faith in God's word. The same way man is saved in every dispensation. And yes, Dooley, it is God's mercy and grace that saves us. Grace is unmerited favor. We do not deserve His grace or His mercy. No amount of works that we do can save us. God is holy. Man is sinful. We cannot approach God on our own because of our sin. God in His infinite mercy provided the only way we can be saved. God says in Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ This was the reason for the sacrificial system that was given in the law of Moses. Even in Eden (before the law was given to Moses) when Adam sinned, God killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve as a temporary covering for their sin to show that blood had to be shed because of the terrible results and consequences of sin. The sacrifices given in the law of Moses had to be done continually because they were also only a temporary covering for sin. That is why Jesus (God incarnate) came to earth. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world once for all. Only Jesus (God) could do this because He is holy and without sin. Of course it was necessary for Jesus to rise from the dead. Without the resurrection we would have no hope. At the moment Christ died, scripture tells us that the veil in the temple was torn it two showing that Christ is the door to God and heaven.

John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”


James 2
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 5:19)


Let's take that verse in context:

Matthew 5:17-19
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What Christ is saying is that He came to fulfill the law. Man cannot fulfill the law, so Christ fulfilled it for us. Christ goes on to say that heaven and earth will not pass away and not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law until all is accomplished. All prophecies in the word of God will be fulfilled at the end of the Kingdom. Then The Great White Throne Judgment will take place, all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire forever, and God will create a new heaven and a new earth for all believers for eternity. (Rev 20:11-21:1)

Now for the verse you quoted.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 5:19)

What Jesus is referring to is false teachers like the Pharisees who taught the law, but did not follow the law and changed the law to suit their own purpose. They did not believe the scriptures or they would have recognized that Jesus was the Messiah. They were not believers so they would be least in the kingdom of heaven (in other words they would not enter in), but whosoever shall do(believe) the word of God and teach others to believe the word of God, they shall be called the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and will enter in. There are over 600 laws and we cannot even keep the 10 commandments. Some, like the Pharisees, put on a show like they can keep the law, but inwardly they do not believe. Jesus said,

Matthew 23:27
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Jesus knows we cannot keep the Law. Jesus kept the Law and fulfilled it for us. Jesus wants us to believe Him, His word and what He has done for us.

Smitty, what I'm trying to say is that this is a simple concept which has been there since the beginning, it's called belief, and doing good. Paul has made it horribly complicated by stating:

"For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" Romans 3:28

The truth is that both faith and works are required, here is the same concept in the Old Testament:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" Deuteronomy 6:4

i.e. BELIEVE

"If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." Deuteronomy 30:10-14

i.e. KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS - do good deeds and avoid bad deeds - easy concept.

And again:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." Ezekiel 18:20-22

So if we do bad deeds, but then repent, and keep His commandment, then God will forgive us...easy again. Hard to do, but easy to understand. Jesus said it too...

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" Mark 12:29

and the part about following the commandments...

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 19:16-19

So Jesus is refering to the same system. He did not mention that he was about to die for that man's sins. Instead he told him to believe in God, and keep his commands, this is the way to eternal life. First you believe in God, then you do what God tells you... easy to understand.

"Those who have faith and do righteous deeds they are the best of creatures.
Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity Beneath which rivers flow; They will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher." (Quran 98:7-8)

Same message, same prophets, same religion. It's only Paul's writings which contradict this simple message. Read the book of James again, who is he calling a foolish man? Why did he not mention Jesus' alleged crucifixion once? Why does he never mention how God used Jesus' sacrifice to forgive our sins? Why does he not mention this most central pillar of the Christian faith even once?

With all due respect to your beliefs and understanding. I only present my understanding in an attempt to help us arrive at the truth.

For everyone else:
And here you have an example of the kind of debate which is possible between Muslims and Christians.

I am not arguing about the important contribution of Islam for the civilization
I wonder why ?

Let's see it

The new testament is much more advanced than the old testament
Why ?
The old testament has been written in wild years
The new testament in the highly civilized ( relatively speaking of course )roman empire

The Coran is more advanced than the Bible
( People confuse terrorism with Islamic religion )
Why
Middle east was at the top of the civilization in the middle age much more advanced than European countries

In other words : " Your heart, your religion "

Having said that claiming that Islam has been a defensor of Science ...well

If I am not wrong the famous Alexandria library has been destroyed by a Califf
Claiming :

" If these books dont agree with Coran than they are dangerous
If they agree than they are useless
Thus burn them "

The Quran is not more advanced than the Bible. Have you ever read it? I found it very chaotic and incoherent, compared to the Bible.

Islamic culture was indeed much more advanced in the middle ages than the European Christianity, but this changed in the 16th century with the age of enlightenment.

Also, the Alexandria library was burned down in Cesar's civil war, and not by some calif.

Yes I read the Coran

However I was rather speaking of the pratical effects

The Bible claims that jewishes much love each other but hate the others and the old testament is full of violence
Jesu christ claimed that you must love everybody but christians have persecuted the other religions
Islam has never persecuted the other religions ( they were happy with a fee)

My explanation is the following : The different degree of civilization

Some sources claim that the Alexandria library was burnt by the emperor Aurelian ( not by Cesar) some other by a califf

The illuminism is in the 18th century
It was a further step forth of the civilization and it reinforces my opinion

Nowadays most people accept the good of both religions while refusing the extremism

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/29/29315/1.html

sorry, it's in german. a short article about the koran and evolution i came across yesterday.