Dan: Thanks for the detailled explanation. They make sense to me.

Not a problem .

Just for everyones knowledge, I've created two new threads based on issues which came up in this thread (but really have nothing to do with it's central topic)

Does the Bible really teach that Jesus was God?
http://www.coniserver.net/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=241335#Post241335

Bible or Quran - which is true?
http://www.coniserver.net/ubb7/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=241339#Post241339

Dan -
My point was that the leap of faith is required by materialism as much as it is required of religions. Some of the comments on this thread have claimed that the universe was not created by a God, and that the universe is the result of chance. Since I did not witness the creation of the universe, believing in this would require a leap of faith on my part. Since I think it's highly unlikely that such a complex and beautiful system could ever be created by chance, I choose, instead, to believe in an intelligent creator.

As to which religion I choose to follow, this is a seperate process, which requires research and study of the various beliefs and texts available. After carrying out such research, I am happy to accept Islam as my faith, because the beliefs as presented in the Quran (not necessarily those presented by some Muslims) are congruent with the beliefs which I have aleady gathered from my own observations of the universe.

Am I 100% certain that I'm right? Of course not. But unless I find a beter explanation, which not only explains the origin of the universe, but also explains how the Quran came into being, I am going to remain a Muslim. This seems perfectly logical to me.

Your assumption that the Quran and it's conception of God are similar to that of the Bible is a common one. I do not think this is the case. The God presented in the Quran is much more reasonable and fair than that of the Bible.

The Quran explains that messengers were sent to every nation at some time, which explains why similar religions exist throughout the world. The differences can then be attributed to human error in recording scripture, and by intentional tampering.

Even Islam has not been free of such tampering, which is why some Muslims get caught up in some very narrow minded cultural viewpoints. But so far this has not impacted the text of the Quran itself.

This is a bit off topic, so maybe we could continue this discussion in another thread, or via email...

Finally, your argument about aliens having helped the creation along is valid, but it does little to explain how life originated from the first place. Where did the aliens come from? How did they evolve? You still have the problem of life coming from dead matter.

A better explanation? What about this? The big bang, evolution, and Mohammed just write some nonsense after hearing of the bible?


You are asking for the source of the source? This is exactly what I already did, but this was being ignored. I asked, who created god? Was god just created by chance?

This is not necessarily true. A witness to the actual event is not always needed in order to know what took place. If I walk through a forest and I see a tree that has fallen down I don't have to have a "leap of faith" to know that the tree fell down. I may not immediately know all the reasons behinds its fall, but I can learn about that by examining the fallen tree. For example, I could see the fallen tree and surmise that a god walked there and knocked it over in his or her wrath. Then I could examine the tree and find that its core was dead wood. I could then surmise that the angry god struck the tree causing the dead wood which, in turn made it fall! Or I could examine the wood and find that it had been infested with a common tree disease that kills the wood. So a leap of faith is not necessary and neither is an original observer to the event. In most cases the aftermath of the event can be studied in order to learn how the event came about. This is also true of the origins of our universe.

Also, just because there is an unknown does not mean we instantly blame god for it . Can't we just say, "Hey! I don't know, but let's see if we can find out!"



Again, just because we don't have a definitive answer does not necessitate a divine being. It just means we don't have an answer. Go back a few hundred years and we didn't have firm answers on what causes disease, the fact of things like bacteria and viruses and many other things. People would, at one time, blame these things on the "act of god". Now we know that they are natural.

Also, the same question you bring up about the aliens (where did they come from) is the same question we can bring up about god (where did HE come from?). It is no more or less valid to ask this of god then of supposed aliens or anything or anyone else. No one has the answer (yet). The Christian simply says that god ever was and ever will be. I suppose the Muslim says the same. I could say this about aliens, if I wanted to, and no one could prove me wrong (especially if I claimed that these aliens were invisible, spiritual beings that inhabit another plane of existence that transcends our time and space ). Basically, your argument here works just as well against a creator as for one.

Actually, the fact that apples can and normally do fall from trees at certain times is not proof for a specific event when you claim a certain apple has fallen from a specific tree.

That's basically what religions claim. It's possibility versus reality really. They claim to know which tree and when, but it's quite unreliable when it comes to truth finding and actual history.

In a philosophical sense it might make sense, it has it's limits, but I'm sure you would agree.

Cheers

Yes, I agree. But consider this: just because I see an apple on the ground, I don't have to jump to the conclusion that a god knocked it off. Since I can observe an apple falling from a tree, then it would be more logical to assume the apple simply fell instead. Therefore, no "leap of faith" is required.

and what caused it to fall? what caused the tree to fall down?

what caused the big bang? if you think you know, what caused the cause of the big bang? this chain goes back infinitely far unless something exists outside of causality to make it happen without requiring something to cause its own existence.

there's no reason that can't be God. either way it's something beyond our current comprehension, even if it is a superset of physical laws we haven't come across.

the "black and white" of heaven and hell has not been disproven, Tiles, we already mentioned that since the requirements are black and white, the destinations can easily be black and white. you either accept Jesus, or you don't, as far as Christianity is concerned.

it takes a tremendous amount of faith in the nonexistence of Hell that one would refuse to address the possibility of everlasting suffering.

julz

Actually this is exactly the leap of faith we're talking about here.

It makes no sense to assume a divine intervention 'just because' we don't really know what happened before the point where our knowledge on this subject ends.



If you take a good look at the definition of God, then you one can only conclude it's by far the least likely cause actually. In fact, just ask yourself "what caused God?" and it's clear God isn't really much of an answer either.

Cheers

but didn't i just say that we have to assume something existed outside of causality to begin causality? so God doesn't need a cause.

either way we have to assume something beyond our comprehension, and by calling God "by far the least likely cause" you're making bold assumptions about the unknown.

julz