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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #241497
12/16/08 18:24
12/16/08 18:24
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Dooley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dan Silverman
Yes, but that is what I am talking about. I am guessing that there are words and even phrases in the Qur'an that are not easy to understand (perhaps even not known for sure what they mean) because of the change in the language over time. This is true for the Christian Bible as well. And this can present problems, especially in a topic like this when people are discussing "truth".


Arabic is made up mostly of 3 letter root words (verbs), these are well known and have not changed since the time of the Quran. Arabic as it is spoken has changed and evolved like any language, but the roots of the language as contained in the Quran have been preserved. Anyone who wants to learn the Arabic of the Quran has plenty of resources. I have a dictionary which defines each word of the Quran, and breaks it down by it's 3 letter root.

The word 'Islam' for instance, means 'Surrender'. However, it's 3 letter root is 's l m' which is the same root as the word 'Salam' which means peace. From this we can interprete the word 'Islam' as a peaceful surrender to God, or achieving peace by surrendering to God etc...

That doesn't mean that there's only one interpretation of the Quran. There are plenty of scholars (no priests in Islam) out there with differing positions on various topics. However, the fundamental teachings of Islam are well known and clearly evident in the Quran.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241500
12/16/08 18:31
12/16/08 18:31
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Dan Silverman Offline
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Quote:
Arabic is made up mostly of 3 letter root words (verbs), these are well known and have not changed since the time of the Quran. Arabic as it is spoken has changed and evolved like any language, but the roots of the language as contained in the Quran have been preserved. Anyone who wants to learn the Arabic of the Quran has plenty of resources. I have a dictionary which defines each word of the Quran, and breaks it down by it's 3 letter root.


This is exactly the same as Hebrew (and Arabic is related to Hebrew), but this does not change the fact that the ancient languages evolve and diverge from the original. In fact, just because a word has a three letter root (with a root meaning) does not mean that a word derived from it keeps its relation to the root. I can explain this using English (though it is not as clean as using the Hebrew to do it).

Let's look at the word "cool" for a moment. It's original meaning is to be something closes to cold, but not quite cold. It's use would be something like, "This nice breeze feels cool on my face." However, in recent decades, the word took on a new meaning. It can also mean "great" or "awesome". An example would be, "This game is really cool!" In this case, the very same word is used, but its meaning is drastically different. In Arabic the same things have happened, as is the case with any language.

Again, just because we can trace a word to its three letter root does not mean we have found the core of its meaning.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241514
12/16/08 19:11
12/16/08 19:11
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Quote:
But this is a description of me. I used to be Christian, and I became Muslim. I could not believe the Bible was 100% God's word, because God would never make so many mistakes. It was only logicall to assume that the mistakes came through human error, and with so many human errors, the reliability of the text as a whole comes into question.

After many months of research, I discovered the Quran, and found no problems in believing it. That does not mean that I can prove that it is 100% correct, but I'm convinced. Only one's own efforts and personal study and reflection can lead to belief, it can't be taught, or enforced on someone through an argument.


Better look into the history of the Quran a bit more then, because the Islam is largely based on the exact same texts, errors included.

Cheers


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: PHeMoX] #241537
12/16/08 22:16
12/16/08 22:16
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Dooley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: PHeMoX

Better look into the history of the Quran a bit more then, because the Islam is largely based on the exact same texts, errors included.


The Quran is a completely separate book, written in Arabic. It was revealed to prophet Muhammad in roughly 600 A.D.

The Bible is a collection of 66 - 72 books (depending on your denomination) written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. It was written and collected over a period of hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

The Quran is not based on the Bible, it asserts that it is a revelation from God (Allah), and that similar revelations have come before.

While the Quran does acknowledge the existence of previously revealed divine books (Torah, Psalms, and Gospels) it also asserts that the Jews and Christians wrote things with their own hands and claimed that they were from God. This accusation is actually written in the Bible too in the Book of Jeremiah

Jeremiah 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.”

The Law is the 'Torah' in Hebrew, which considered to be the books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

The errors and contradictions in the Bible, are therefore likely to be the result of human error and tampering, not inherent in the original revealed text, which is now lost.

The Quran, is free from such accusations, and from statements which clearly contradict reality. Therefore, I maintain that the Quran is the more reliable book.

I can't convince anyone that the Quran is 100% true, although I believe it is. That would require some dedicated self-study on the part of the individual.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241541
12/16/08 22:33
12/16/08 22:33
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Dan Silverman Offline
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Quote:
And we have made the earth egg shaped (dahâhâ). - Al-Qur’an 79:30


Dahâhâ, in Arabic, could mean "egg shaped" (depending on who you talk to). It could also mean to "spread out" (again, depending on who you talk to). Some, who adhere to the "egg shaped" understanding want to associate the word "dahâhâ" with an ostrich egg in particular. So let's look at this a moment.

First, if we examine the shape of the earth, it is not "egg shaped" ... not even ostrich egg shaped. While it is true that the earth is not spherical (it is a bit flatter at the poles than at the equator) it is still not egg shaped. An egg is longer at the poles and narrower at the equator (even an ostrich egg, which may be more spherical than your average egg, but is still not shaped like the earth). Therefore, if the translation of dahâhâ is "egg shaped" then we have a problem between the Qur'an and reality.

However, most scholars of the Qur'an do not seem to agree with the "egg shaped" translation. They contend that the word dahâhâ means "spread out" as in to "flatten". The association with the idea of "egg shaped" (and with an ostrich egg in particular) comes from the idea that an ostrich creates a flattened area in which to place its egg(s). One Islamic web site states it as follows:

Quote:
With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg an "udhiyy". This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w – the same etymological root as the verb dahâ. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depression where the ostrich deposits its egg.

Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage.


If this is the case, then we are left with dahâhâ meaning to "spread out" as in to "flatten". This would agree with other verses from the Qur'an. The result of the understanding of this word is that the earth, according to the Qur'an is flat, having been "spread out" (as in to "flatten") by Allah.

This also does not agree with reality.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #241544
12/16/08 22:50
12/16/08 22:50
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Dooley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dan Silverman

Again, just because we can trace a word to its three letter root does not mean we have found the core of its meaning.


But the Quran does not exist in a vacuum. There are mountains of books written about this very thing, and they date back to very early times in Islamic history. These books of commentary on the Quran, known as Tafsir, are about exactly this issue. They are like dictionaries of the Quran, from the time of the Quran's revelation. There are Hadith too, sayings of prophet Muhammad, which have been collected, and which outline in terms of practice, exactly how the Quran is to be interpreted.

Now Hadith and tafsir are not free of errors and contradictions like the Quran is, but they are also a key part of understanding the language, which helps in interpreting the text. The point is that all of this surrounding material has really helped to preserve the Arabic language.

If you read about the development of modern Hebrew, you will see that it was almost completely broken off from it's ancient sources. It is a new language with some passing similarities to ancient Hebrew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language

Arabic never underwent such a change. It had never died as a language, so there is a continuous tradition of it's usage dating back to the prophet Muhammad, and even to times before Islam.

Furthermore, the differences of opinion which occur among Muslims ,are not over linguistic issues. They are over interpretation, priorities, and conditions, and are almost entirely rooted in squabbles over hadith literature. The Shi'ah (islam's oldest sect) have the exact same Quran as the Sunni. It is the interpretation of hadith which fuel the differences between the two sects, not linguistic issues with the Quran.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241545
12/16/08 23:03
12/16/08 23:03
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Posts: 11,321
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Dan Silverman Offline
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The Hebrew you mention is the modern, spoken Hebrew. However, Hebrew never really stopped being used or spoken. For centuries it was a "religious" language. When Ben Yehuda "revived" the language in the 1800's he was attempting to modernize it.

Like the Qur'an, the Hebrew Bible has many ancient language resources and commentaries. However, like these resources of the Qur'an, they don't always solve problems and, in many cases, introduce problems.

There are disagreements over the understanding of many Arabic words used in the Qur'an. This is evidenced just from reading what is written on Islamic sites and looking at some Islamic resources. I tried very hard not to look at anti-Islamic sites when doing some of this research. What I found was the same thing I saw within Christianity: people would come with an already preconceived belief and then find the interpretations that fit their belief. This included determining which specific word meaning to choose for understanding a verse or passage.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #241551
12/17/08 00:19
12/17/08 00:19
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Dooley Offline OP
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I will agree that people often bring their own pre-concieved ideas to the Quran. No argument there, but that includes the pre-concieved idea that it is a false book, which I believe a lot of non-religious people do. They nit-pick in order to find errors, and as a result, the first thing they find which requires a little reflection, sends them away, assuming that they've disproved the Quran.

My understanding is that Islam is a very simple faith, which people have tried to make very complex. The Quran itself explains how this happens:

"He it is Who hath revealed unto thee the Scripture wherein are clear revelations--They are the substance of the Book--and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." (Quran 3:7)

The idea is that some people will try to control others by interpreting the Quran a particular way, and attempting to force that interpretation upon others.
This is obviously against the message of the Quran.

However, your point about the flat earth is one I've never heard before. I will do some research into that.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241639
12/17/08 19:36
12/17/08 19:36
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Dooley Offline OP
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I did a bit of investigating. Dahaha seems to be a verb, which means 'he spread out'. I'm not sure where the 'egg shaped' thing came from, but you're right, I did find one translation which used the term 'egg shaped'

I also found the following:
"And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped." ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)). Translated by QXP Shabbir Ahemd**

Both translations had the following explanation:
** - Read with caution - These Translations, marked here with **, are considered either incorrect, far-fetched, non-conforming or misleading. Care must be exercised for certain verses or an alternate translation should be considered.

My conclusion, since dahaha is a verb, it probably has nothing to do with eggs, or shapes. The idea that God 'spread out' the earth is not specific enough to conclude that it is defining it as flat (or spherical for that matter).

It's true there are some Muslims who are overly enthusiastic about finding scientific miracles in the Quran, and will 'stretch' or 'spread out' the language in order to do so. To me, I am content with a Quran which does not openly contradict science.

Any language can lend itself to various interpretations. Look at the debates going around the U.S. Constitution.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241660
12/17/08 22:36
12/17/08 22:36
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PHeMoX Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dooley
Originally Posted By: PHeMoX

Better look into the history of the Quran a bit more then, because the Islam is largely based on the exact same texts, errors included.


The Quran is a completely separate book, written in Arabic. It was revealed to prophet Muhammad in roughly 600 A.D.


/sarcasm: Right, that must be why it shares so many stories with the Bible...

Really, it's not a completely separate book. It is however written in a somewhat different manner and sure it's in Arabic, but hey the Bible wasn't originally written in English either. wink

Cheers


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